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What is the best way to run Bikes with Zhadsnark?

1) 6 man units so the MSU approach
2) 1x 15 man unit and several 3 man unit so one deffstar to scout up
3) Other?

My current goal is to run 2x15 warbikers, both with a painbiker and nob with PK. Unit 1 will be joined by Zhadsnark, gaining a 12" scout and skilled rider, plus +1 to jink (also making both units troops). The other unit will be rounded off with a PK lucky stikk bikerboss. This will be a dual Force Org and will therefore require 2 troops selections to allow me to take the 4 HQs.

 pocketcanoe wrote:
My current goal is to run 2x15 warbikers, both with a painbiker and nob with PK. Unit 1 will be joined by Zhadsnark, gaining a 12" scout and skilled rider, plus +1 to jink (also making both units troops). The other unit will be rounded off with a PK lucky stikk bikerboss. This will be a dual Force Org and will therefore require 2 troops selections to allow me to take the 4 HQs.

Where does the +1 jink come from?
Also, Does Zhand make bikes troops in a secondary CAD? As his rules states "Biker Boss: An army led by Zhadsnark may include Warbikers (if available in the army list) as Troops choices, but the army may not include any Deff Dreads, Killa Kans or Big Gunz. In addition, if Zhadsnark begins the game as part of a Warbikers unit then he gains the Scout special rule."

Zhadsnark would be the warlord in this case. Skilled rider confers the +1 jink. So if his squad turbo boosts, they get a 2+ cover. The other squad would need night fighting to get that level of protection, which would be about 2/3 of the time. The lucky stikk would then allow the warboss to tank wounds with a 2+ re-rollable cover save. Added to FNP makes them all very survivable in that critical first turn. Avoid template weapons

Mmmm, nice little combo.
So 15 bikes, Nob, PK (or maybe a BC simply to accept challenges?)
Painboy on Bike
Zhand (WL)
Bikerboss with DLS
Mek with KFF (potentially, but not a requirement)

Then another 15 bikes as your secondary unit to join once you've lost quite a lot of your bikes?
I have given this idea quite a bit of thought since you first mentioned it awhile ago (I believe), I think adding some small bike units (maybe 5 man) to stick in front, or maybe coptas (as they can also scout, so aren't lagging behind turn 1), these could help block paths for the bikes and make sure you don't get charged by anything that's going to really tie you up, or that you don't want to be in combat with. However saying that, overwatch from 18 bikes your looking at like 15+ hits anyway, so maybe you want people to charge?

I finally have the chance to test out a large warbiker unit list this week, so I'll report on how they perform.

The KFF seems a little redundant unless you're specifically worried about cover-ignoring weapons.

please do, I am just about to start building 10 bike conversions, with potentially another 10 after. Also post your list at some point, I've just written a list with your idea at the centre, be interested in what you selected as support compared with what I did.

Yeh as its only against shooting and the whole point of the DLS boss is to soak shooting, seems rather a waste of 100 points.

Aaaaaaaaand I got owned.

I played against thunder wolf cavalry. The essence of the game was I tried to out-chop a choppy army. He deployed to flank me and instead of waiting to hit him with the whole army, I approached him unit by unit and he took me apart piecemeal.

I had already thought about this eventuality, decided how to deal with it and completely forgot all about my plan the minute I got the chance to fire and charge.

Given the same matchup, I'd have to avoid combat entirely (those wolves hit too hard with too many attacks) and use terrain to shoot whilst staying out of reach. The entire army's fire would have to concentrate on each of his units one by one.

It's all clear with hindsight.

 pocketcanoe wrote:
Aaaaaaaaand I got owned.

I played against thunder wolf cavalry. The essence of the game was I tried to out-chop a choppy army. He deployed to flank me and instead of waiting to hit him with the whole army, I approached him unit by unit and he took me apart piecemeal.

I had already thought about this eventuality, decided how to deal with it and completely forgot all about my plan the minute I got the chance to fire and charge.

Given the same matchup, I'd have to avoid combat entirely (those wolves hit too hard with too many attacks) and use terrain to shoot whilst staying out of reach. The entire army's fire would have to concentrate on each of his units one by one.

It's all clear with hindsight.

I had good success with 5 man units of Bikes, admittedly against DA and Infantry heavy IF but still it's given me hope for MSU Orks. Just change mob rule already!

 pocketcanoe wrote:
Aaaaaaaaand I got owned.

I played against thunder wolf cavalry. The essence of the game was I tried to out-chop a choppy army. He deployed to flank me and instead of waiting to hit him with the whole army, I approached him unit by unit and he took me apart piecemeal.

I had already thought about this eventuality, decided how to deal with it and completely forgot all about my plan the minute I got the chance to fire and charge.

Given the same matchup, I'd have to avoid combat entirely (those wolves hit too hard with too many attacks) and use terrain to shoot whilst staying out of reach. The entire army's fire would have to concentrate on each of his units one by one.

It's all clear with hindsight.

seems you were more brutal but kunnin' rather than kunnin' but brutal Sounds very orky! make a plan, ignore it and get stuck in!

Has anyone tried spamming bikes via Zhadsnark's warlord trait?

It strikes me as one of the more powerful Ork builds you could do as bikes are shooty, choppy, fast and resilient. With so many bikes you could probably even deal with flyers by targeting rear armour when the opportunity presented itself. The only weaknesses I can think of are:

1) You wouldn't have a lot of (heavy) anti-tank weaponry, so perhaps you could take a biker mek with a killsaw;

2) Reliance on cover saves would leave you vulnerable to Tau smart missile spam; and

3) The models themselves would cost you a lot of real-world money!

I used 5x5 man units in a 3000 point game earlier today with a friend who used Tau Allies against IFists and Minotaurs.

They worked so well I've just finished buying the models to make them all 6 man units, or 6x5 if you want. Would cost you 40 points more though for Boss Nob w/ PK and BP.

I also took Dakkajets (didn't do much), Kommandoes with Rokkits (didn't do anything) and Lootas with a Big Mek (killed Termies and knocked Lysander down to two wounds).

Flyers were a non-issue but Lootas are deadly in their own right and Tau had ample Skyfire so yeah.

The main point I need to make - it was fun! Moving 25 bikes each turn and turbo-boosting to get right in the opponents face was godly. Going to take some MANz in Trukks to supplement them, their only weakness is a lack of AP2, particularly if your character gets challenged and dies (as what happened when my Minotaurs opponent rolled hot for his sergeant with a power sword).

I don't think there's anything stopping you from using Zhadsnark in a hoard detatchment.

Normally, taking 3x10 bikes would mean that one squad would have to do without a painboy. how about this:

FOC 1: hoarde.

Zhad plus 2 painbikers. 3x10 bikers as troops.

FOC 2: CAD

Bikerboss, 1 painbiker, minimum troops.


so, all in all you get your 3x10 bike squads, all with FNP, all with obsec, 2 of which have a killy character attached.

Actually, the main problem with several large biker units is morale and the rediculous mob rule. If you haven't spent a bunch of points to outfit each unit with a boss to give them a so-so 9LD, your in trouble.

Even with a 15ork unit, lose 4 bikes and that's a morale check where its a good chance you'll run away and beat yourself up. And if you lost combat or your opponent has LD modifiers? Forget it.

That's why you generally only see either MSU bikers and/or one large unit with da big boss pole from the ghazzy supplement.

Until they fix mob rule, probably the stupidist rule in the game anyway...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, a horde detachment is not a CAD or AD. No OB Sec.

then rotate them round, make the CAD the primary and take 2 biker units from that.

In fact, drop the horde detachment, take the W!G detatchment, so that you can take a BBP to make one unit fearless with the BBP and use grot troops (as they dont suffer from almost instantly running away )

But yeh morale will be a problem at times, especially against LD debuffing armies.

Ah yes, you're right about obsec.

but d6 s4 ap- hits is not bad against t5 4+ armour fnp models (approx. 1/3 of a wound on average, with admittedly high variance). and mob rule is a good reason to take more models, surely?

Also, what is your huge biker gang doing in combat with a unit it can't massacre in short order?

the main problem i found with big bike units has been their unwieldyness, especially when trying to avoid templates and blasts, which is a double-edged sword thanks to the huge board control this brings with it.

Not worried about the damage of the mob rule, I'm worried about the too-high probability that my big expensive bike unit will run away.

Yeh the mob rule sucks balls. I mean great if your a 30 man blob, your not going anywhere (yet). But for bike units, you've still got quite a high chance to run away as likely there is less than 12 models - especially considering it takes 25% shooting to force a check.

But in saying that I see no reason you can't bring a BBP for one unit atleast. the W!G mob rule is worse, but atleast the BBP makes you fearless.

I played against new DAngels today and won. Yay!

Those DA terminators are awesome in cc so I avoided them where I could, and was then able to kite them across the table, taking them down with weight of fire.

The bikes were great, taking out a flyer too.

Deffkoptas are little stars. So useful. Soaking over watch, blocking charges, grabbing objectives.

I was also kunnin' with my trukk placement, also blocking deathwing from charging my bikes after they had shot the termies.

I'm loving this army, it's really helping me to learn the importance of positional play.

Was wanting to run Zhadsnark, but that 6+ save is pretty terrible

I run Shadsnark all the time with a Painboy and about 8 Warbikerz and a PK Nob, and even a KFF Big Mek on occasion. Those extra HQs come with a 35 point Grot tax, but that's OK for ObSec units. That +1 cover save and no Dangerous Terrain tests from Skilled Rider is awesome as well. Worried about his 6+ Armour? Look Out, Sir on a 2+.

I originally thought the same, that 6+ armour is a dealbreaker, but bearing in mind he's hitting at initiative, surrounded by 4+ armour models and often accompanied by a nob and a painboy, it's actually pretty irrelevant. If you're playing carefully with his position in the unit and making sure he doesn't get challenged by anyone with high initiative (as you would with any warboss) then his benefits vastly outweigh this minor issue.