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So, Blood Angels are pretty much the worst space marine faction now (chaos marines notwithstanding, so maybe I should say loyalist marines). My crazy pipedream hope is that GW will release some formation supplements to bring BA in line with the rest of the loyalists. Maybe they could just faq their current formations to have the same rules as the other loyalists (BA does have demi company formation in their nid campaign book, but it is seriously lacking in rules and gives basically no benefits).

Please, like the title says, crush these crazy pipedreams of mine now so its less disappointing later when they are proven to be untrue.

You just got a new book. Blood Angels have returned to the back-burner, and I doubt you'll see anything new for at least 2 years.

Okay.



If this is unclear, the can is your hopes, and Darla there is Games Workshop. I should be a political satirist!

 Phiasco II wrote:
So, Blood Angels are pretty much the worst space marine faction now (chaos marines notwithstanding, so maybe I should say loyalist marines). My crazy pipedream hope is that GW will release some formation supplements to bring BA in line with the rest of the loyalists. Maybe they could just faq their current formations to have the same rules as the other loyalists (BA does have demi company formation in their nid campaign book, but it is seriously lacking in rules and gives basically no benefits).

Please, like the title says, crush these crazy pipedreams of mine now so its less disappointing later when they are proven to be untrue.

I don't know if it'll help but at the current pace we both will get a "new" blood angel codex in only about a year or two max! I should have sold my current one by then in disgust. In the meantime, just use codex vanilla marines for the freebies.

Gotta love how Blood Angels have become the Chaos Marines of 6th; the whiniest community

Yep, blood angels are awful now and all BA models must be promptly thrown in the mud.

But seriously, I still like to run with BA allies. Dante is awesome.

 Phiasco II wrote:
So, Blood Angels are pretty much the worst space marine faction now (chaos marines notwithstanding, so maybe I should say loyalist marines). My crazy pipedream hope is that GW will release some formation supplements to bring BA in line with the rest of the loyalists. Maybe they could just faq their current formations to have the same rules as the other loyalists (BA does have demi company formation in their nid campaign book, but it is seriously lacking in rules and gives basically no benefits).

Please, like the title says, crush these crazy pipedreams of mine now so its less disappointing later when they are proven to be untrue.

Sadly GW seems incapable of using FAQs to update out of date books until they can get a full update. Best time for that would have been when 6th came out and flyers were made a big part of the game. Did they smartly FAQ all existing books to have some anti-flyer options? Nope. That would have made too much sense. Expect the next BA codex to have cool detachments and the like in it, and in the mean time they will languish without any cool detachments until that happens. Because, GW reasons.

Skriker

I haven't actually counted, but BA may have THE MOST formations available to them. Sure, some are "meh" but others are pretty great.

Not sure why the BA sky is falling because a few Codex: Space Marine units got cheaper or got a better stat-line. Were you playing BA because you loved Scouts? Their assault marines got an upgrade option that we don't get, but I'm not sure I'd purchase it anyway (but that's just me). 3 Vindicators get a super pie plate? I'll pass on that easy to overcome point sink. 2 wound tech marines! Who plays BA because of tech marines?

They got some cool formations (that BA CAN USE if we really want to, considering they're battle bros), but everyone has a few cool formations (or will when GW gets around to the new round of codex updates).

If you play BA, you're probably doing so because of Death Company, FnP options, Fast Vehicles, or some other BA-ish reason that a new Space Marines codex shouldn't / didn't really replace.

Or, let me put it another way....if the new Space Marine codex invalidated your current Blood Angel army, then you should have been playing Space Marines all along.

If you ran a few Furioso's I can see being salty, but the increased amount of dread attacks is pretty much the only thing we really lost out on.

Well, yeah... they can't do all the grav/tigurious/centurion/smurf pod shenanigans that vanilla marines. Their scouts and vanguards get to eat a turd sandwich compared to vanilla. Your chapter tactics suck compared to most of the vanilla (can't even beat Space Wolves at the melee game). If you want to perform well at tournaments, you're going to have a bad time.

But I think they work well enough in a casual setting, and they play very differently from regular marines. I dig them.

 DanielBeaver wrote:
Well, yeah... they can't do all the grav/tigurious/centurion/smurf pod shenanigans that vanilla marines. Their scouts and vanguards get to eat a turd sandwich compared to vanilla. Your chapter tactics suck compared to most of the vanilla (can't even beat Space Wolves at the melee game). If you want to perform well at tournaments, you're going to have a bad time.

But I think they work well enough in a casual setting, and they play very differently from regular marines. I dig them.

This is the right attitude I think. And, if you've got a cool group to play with, you can probably talk it over with your gaming group and implement a lil' update FAQ yourself - see what got changed in the core SM book without changing points costs and implement those in BA.

 DanielBeaver wrote:
Well, yeah... they can't do all the grav/tigurious/centurion/smurf pod shenanigans that vanilla marines. Their scouts and vanguards get to eat a turd sandwich compared to vanilla. Your chapter tactics suck compared to most of the vanilla (can't even beat Space Wolves at the melee game). If you want to perform well at tournaments, you're going to have a bad time.

But I think they work well enough in a casual setting, and they play very differently from regular marines. I dig them.

FWIW, this weekend, a Blood Angels army just won the biggest local tournament of the year in my area. (I don't play BA, nor do any of my friends, so I can't comment on the competitiveness of the codex)

SGTPozy wrote:
Gotta love how Blood Angels have become the Chaos Marines of 6th; the whiniest community

I don't see you lining up to trade armies with us.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Icculus wrote:
Yep, blood angels are awful now and all BA models must be promptly thrown in the mud.

But seriously, I still like to run with BA allies. Dante is awesome.

Mud? How about incinerator?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Voidwraith wrote:
I haven't actually counted, but BA may have THE MOST formations available to them. Sure, some are "meh" but others are pretty great.

Not sure why the BA sky is falling because a few Codex: Space Marine units got cheaper or got a better stat-line. Were you playing BA because you loved Scouts? Their assault marines got an upgrade option that we don't get, but I'm not sure I'd purchase it anyway (but that's just me). 3 Vindicators get a super pie plate? I'll pass on that easy to overcome point sink. 2 wound tech marines! Who plays BA because of tech marines?

They got some cool formations (that BA CAN USE if we really want to, considering they're battle bros), but everyone has a few cool formations (or will when GW gets around to the new round of codex updates).

If you play BA, you're probably doing so because of Death Company, FnP options, Fast Vehicles, or some other BA-ish reason that a new Space Marines codex shouldn't / didn't really replace.

Or, let me put it another way....if the new Space Marine codex invalidated your current Blood Angel army, then you should have been playing Space Marines all along.

If you ran a few Furioso's I can see being salty, but the increased amount of dread attacks is pretty much the only thing we really lost out on.

None of the BA formations can even touch the Skyhammer one. The hoops the BA jump through for 1st turn assault is just crazy.

Martel732 wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Gotta love how Blood Angels have become the Chaos Marines of 6th; the whiniest community

I don't see you lining up to trade armies with us.

Sure I'll trade you my Tau! Tau have been invalidated far more than Blood Angels due to Ad Mech and Eldar who are shooter and more maneuvble than Tau.

At least you still have your Skitarii allies and other IoM cheese.

I will shoot mono-BA off the table with mono-Tau without even breaking a sweat. The BA simply don't have the tools to threaten the Tau in any meaningful way. I don't own a codex called "IoM", and I'm not paying to win.

If you don't think Eldar invalidate BA, you aren't paying attention.

BA with allies > Eldar with allies

SGTPozy wrote:
BA with allies > Eldar with allies

I don't own BA allies. And I'm not going to, either. Especially the stupid Skitarri, which is what I'm assuming you are referring to. Also, I'm pretty confident I could beat a Skitarri pod list with mono-Eldar. It's all in the setup.

Also, I shouldn't have to not play BA to make BA work. That is not an endorsement of the codex.

You could say the same for any army; an Eldar player might only own Storm Guardians but that wouldn't mean that Eldar aren't powerful just because said player doesn't own the better models.
That's the same as the cheesy IoM; not exploiting the allies system is intentionally restricting your competitiveness.

Could you also beat the cheesiest formation ever - the Skyhammer? I doubt it.

Anyway, please stop derailing this thread, Martel

I'm free to say what I like until a mod steps in. Last I checked, the thread was about BA.

You started this by accusing people of whining. You clearly lack any empathy as you can't understand why BA players are upset after the Necron, Eldar, and SM codices in 7th.

" not exploiting the allies system is intentionally restricting your competitiveness. "

Eldar don't have to go outside their own 50 dollar codex to get a great list. BA players shouldn't have to own multiple 50 dollar codices. People like you falling for GWs crap. The IoM is a joke and the concept should be resisted. As I said, I'm not paying extra to win when Xenos don't have to do this.

"Could you also beat the cheesiest formation ever - the Skyhammer? I doubt it. "

The way most people play drop lists, I think that Eldar could fight it to around a 50/50 outcome. Again, set up would be key. I think many Xeno players are careless when they see drop pods and then blame the drop pods.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm free to say what I like until a mod steps in. Last I checked, the thread was about BA.

Not really true in any sense.

By signing up for an account here you agreed to follow the rules of the site at all times.

Certainly not until a Moderator tells you to follow the rules.

Because by that point, you're into warnings and possibly even suspensions.

GENERAL IN THREAD WARNING FOR EVERYONE:

Please be sure to follow ALL of the rules ALL of the time - especially RULE #1.

Thanks!

Deleted

Now you know how we felt when you stole our Inferno Pistols and immolators, then gave them back worse...

 Phiasco II wrote:
So, Blood Angels are pretty much the worst space marine faction now (chaos marines notwithstanding, so maybe I should say loyalist marines). My crazy pipedream hope is that GW will release some formation supplements to bring BA in line with the rest of the loyalists. Maybe they could just faq their current formations to have the same rules as the other loyalists (BA does have demi company formation in their nid campaign book, but it is seriously lacking in rules and gives basically no benefits).

Please, like the title says, crush these crazy pipedreams of mine now so its less disappointing later when they are proven to be untrue.

GW doesn't do FAQ's anymore. The problem with Blood Angels is that the Dawn of War series was all about them so now they are too mainstream. GW doesn't like any faction being more mainstream then their Space Smurfs.

 Xerics wrote:

 Phiasco II wrote:
So, Blood Angels are pretty much the worst space marine faction now (chaos marines notwithstanding, so maybe I should say loyalist marines). My crazy pipedream hope is that GW will release some formation supplements to bring BA in line with the rest of the loyalists. Maybe they could just faq their current formations to have the same rules as the other loyalists (BA does have demi company formation in their nid campaign book, but it is seriously lacking in rules and gives basically no benefits).

Please, like the title says, crush these crazy pipedreams of mine now so its less disappointing later when they are proven to be untrue.

GW doesn't do FAQ's anymore. The problem with Blood Angels is that the Dawn of War series was all about them so now they are too mainstream. GW doesn't like any faction being more mainstream then their Space Smurfs.

Dawn of War was Blood Ravens, not Blood Angels.

Believe it or not, I have seen xenos players claim that Drop Pods are OP... T________T

It is true that Blood Angels are the new Dark Angels: they got shafted by being released before the major changes of the next Space Marine codex. They also came out before GW decided to dramatically change how armies are built with the new Formation-Detachments system. Their Terminators are now more overcosted, their scouts have worse shooting ability than regular, their dreads have fewer attacks (for some inexplicable reason), and they don't have Doctrines or the Gladius/Battle Company. I could go on.

However, Blood Angels are far from unplayable; they have it a lot better than 6th edition Dark Angels did. Army-wide Furious Charge is hardly a bad chapter tactic. Their HQ and special characters are very good (more so if you FAQ in the Reclusiarch), especially Dante and Mephiston. Death Company and Sanguinary Guard are great units. They have plenty of formations and special detachments of their own as well. Blood Angels might be weaker than more recent releases, but that's a matter of toning down those books and bringing the others up to par.

The best solution I can think of is a fan FAQ that gives Blood Angels access to the most important things out of the new Space Marine codex: the Gladius detachment, BS4 scouts, better/cheaper dreads and terminators, and some form of doctrines. Even better, give the Furioso 5 attacks base.

If you tone down the most powerful armies and FAQ where it's needed, Blood Angels are far from being the worst army. That title goes to vanilla CSM now.

 kronk wrote:

 Xerics wrote:

 Phiasco II wrote:
So, Blood Angels are pretty much the worst space marine faction now (chaos marines notwithstanding, so maybe I should say loyalist marines). My crazy pipedream hope is that GW will release some formation supplements to bring BA in line with the rest of the loyalists. Maybe they could just faq their current formations to have the same rules as the other loyalists (BA does have demi company formation in their nid campaign book, but it is seriously lacking in rules and gives basically no benefits).

Please, like the title says, crush these crazy pipedreams of mine now so its less disappointing later when they are proven to be untrue.

GW doesn't do FAQ's anymore. The problem with Blood Angels is that the Dawn of War series was all about them so now they are too mainstream. GW doesn't like any faction being more mainstream then their Space Smurfs.

Dawn of War was Blood Ravens, not Blood Angels.

Too much blood. They need more unique names for their factions...

 Alpharius wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm free to say what I like until a mod steps in. Last I checked, the thread was about BA.

Not really true in any sense.

By signing up for an account here you agreed to follow the rules of the site at all times.

Certainly not until a Moderator tells you to follow the rules.

Because by that point, you're into warnings and possibly even suspensions.

GENERAL IN THREAD WARNING FOR EVERYONE:

Please be sure to follow ALL of the rules ALL of the time - especially RULE #1.

Thanks!

I didn't mean literally anything. I feel that my post was sufficiently on topic, however.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Believe it or not, I have seen xenos players claim that Drop Pods are OP... T________T

It is true that Blood Angels are the new Dark Angels: they got shafted by being released before the major changes of the next Space Marine codex. They also came out before GW decided to dramatically change how armies are built with the new Formation-Detachments system. Their Terminators are now more overcosted, their scouts have worse shooting ability than regular, their dreads have fewer attacks (for some inexplicable reason), and they don't have Doctrines or the Gladius/Battle Company. I could go on.

However, Blood Angels are far from unplayable; they have it a lot better than 6th edition Dark Angels did. Army-wide Furious Charge is hardly a bad chapter tactic. Their HQ and special characters are very good (more so if you FAQ in the Reclusiarch), especially Dante and Mephiston. Death Company and Sanguinary Guard are great units. They have plenty of formations and special detachments of their own as well. Blood Angels might be weaker than more recent releases, but that's a matter of toning down those books and bringing the others up to par.

The best solution I can think of is a fan FAQ that gives Blood Angels access to the most important things out of the new Space Marine codex: the Gladius detachment, BS4 scouts, better/cheaper dreads and terminators, and some form of doctrines. Even better, give the Furioso 5 attacks base.

If you tone down the most powerful armies and FAQ where it's needed, Blood Angels are far from being the worst army. That title goes to vanilla CSM now.

The BA and CSM are both sufficiently terrible that their terribleness is hard to distinguish at this point. Which army is worse than the horrible triad of DA/BA/CSM atm? Orks? DE? Sisters?

Blood Angels do have some builds that can stand alone. Vanilla CSM have nothing of the sort and are designed for two editions previous. The only way to currently play CSM effectively is with Daemon allies or as Daemonkin.

Orks can at least use the Green Tide or Trukk mobs.

Dark Eldar and Sisters are mid-tier armies. Not as powerful as the Tetrarchy of Cheese (Eldar, Tau, Necrons, Daemons), but still capable on the tabletop. It's where I would rank Blood Angels and Space Wolves as well.

It probably doesn't help that you apparently play in the most competitive meta in North America, Martel732.

The only real hope BA players have in the next year or two is Forgeworld releasing the Blood Angels Legion rules.

Martel732 wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm free to say what I like until a mod steps in. Last I checked, the thread was about BA.

Not really true in any sense.

By signing up for an account here you agreed to follow the rules of the site at all times.

Certainly not until a Moderator tells you to follow the rules.

Because by that point, you're into warnings and possibly even suspensions.

GENERAL IN THREAD WARNING FOR EVERYONE:

Please be sure to follow ALL of the rules ALL of the time - especially RULE #1.

Thanks!

I didn't mean literally anything. I feel that my post was sufficiently on topic, however.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Believe it or not, I have seen xenos players claim that Drop Pods are OP... T________T

It is true that Blood Angels are the new Dark Angels: they got shafted by being released before the major changes of the next Space Marine codex. They also came out before GW decided to dramatically change how armies are built with the new Formation-Detachments system. Their Terminators are now more overcosted, their scouts have worse shooting ability than regular, their dreads have fewer attacks (for some inexplicable reason), and they don't have Doctrines or the Gladius/Battle Company. I could go on.

However, Blood Angels are far from unplayable; they have it a lot better than 6th edition Dark Angels did. Army-wide Furious Charge is hardly a bad chapter tactic. Their HQ and special characters are very good (more so if you FAQ in the Reclusiarch), especially Dante and Mephiston. Death Company and Sanguinary Guard are great units. They have plenty of formations and special detachments of their own as well. Blood Angels might be weaker than more recent releases, but that's a matter of toning down those books and bringing the others up to par.

The best solution I can think of is a fan FAQ that gives Blood Angels access to the most important things out of the new Space Marine codex: the Gladius detachment, BS4 scouts, better/cheaper dreads and terminators, and some form of doctrines. Even better, give the Furioso 5 attacks base.

If you tone down the most powerful armies and FAQ where it's needed, Blood Angels are far from being the worst army. That title goes to vanilla CSM now.

The BA and CSM are both sufficiently terrible that their terribleness is hard to distinguish at this point. Which army is worse than the horrible triad of DA/BA/CSM atm? Orks? DE? Sisters?

Yeh bit harsh - you were completely and utterly on topic IMO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Voidwraith wrote:
I haven't actually counted, but BA may have THE MOST formations available to them. Sure, some are "meh" but others are pretty great.

Not sure why the BA sky is falling because a few Codex: Space Marine units got cheaper or got a better stat-line. Were you playing BA because you loved Scouts? Their assault marines got an upgrade option that we don't get, but I'm not sure I'd purchase it anyway (but that's just me). 3 Vindicators get a super pie plate? I'll pass on that easy to overcome point sink. 2 wound tech marines! Who plays BA because of tech marines?

They got some cool formations (that BA CAN USE if we really want to, considering they're battle bros), but everyone has a few cool formations (or will when GW gets around to the new round of codex updates).

If you play BA, you're probably doing so because of Death Company, FnP options, Fast Vehicles, or some other BA-ish reason that a new Space Marines codex shouldn't / didn't really replace.

Or, let me put it another way....if the new Space Marine codex invalidated your current Blood Angel army, then you should have been playing Space Marines all along.

If you ran a few Furioso's I can see being salty, but the increased amount of dread attacks is pretty much the only thing we really lost out on.

Except we lost FA baals, scout for said Baals and ASMs as troops. Yes we gained a lot.
Then Necrons came out. And then eldar. And the Skittari. And then SMs.
Its not because we DON'T GET what SMs get, its because they DO. And in doing so Necron, Eldar and SM players have a major advantage over us before even picking a list because they own a far better dex.
I literally cannot think of a way to keep my mono BA DC/SG list alive against scat bikes or skyhammer (that doesn't utterly gimp me). How is that a fair battle?
Also - our formations carried with them distinct advantages that were not made up for with the advantages.
And yes - I do use BA scouts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SGTPozy wrote:
Gotta love how Blood Angels have become the Chaos Marines of 6th; the whiniest community

I've never really got into a debate with you before but have seen a lot of your posts...

Isn't this one a touch hypocritical?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also vanilla CSM aren't so bad if you use The Purge. 4 HS (think sicaran, rapier laser destroyers and a fire raptor (I've proxied a raven), 2 compulsory elites (chosen in rhinos and/or MoK termis in a dreadclaw with...) 1 compulsory HQ (Abaddon). Plus a juggerlord with spawn or a DP of Khorne with AoBF instead. Works wonders.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Except we lost FA baals, scout for said Baals and ASMs as troops. Yes we gained a lot.
Then Necrons came out. And then eldar. And the Skittari. And then SMs.
Its not because we DON'T GET what SMs get, its because they DO. And in doing so Necron, Eldar and SM players have a major advantage over us before even picking a list because they own a far better dex.
I literally cannot think of a way to keep my mono BA DC/SG list alive against scat bikes or skyhammer (that doesn't utterly gimp me). How is that a fair battle?
Also - our formations carried with them distinct advantages that were not made up for with the advantages.
And yes - I do use BA scouts.

That's a problem with the new releases, not with Blood Angels. If anything, the newer books need to be toned down.

I'm not saying that BA are fine as is. They clearly aren't in comparison with the new Marines. Again, house rules/fan FAQ can at least bring Blood Angels in line with what's in the new Space Marine codex. I wouldn't count on anything more from GW though. BA already got the Shield of Baal campaign, and GW is probably going to focus on Fantasy a lot more once 9th edition drops.