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Reading many posts here over the last few months there is always threads about how OP this list or that list is. Reading here I always think, "Wow this stuff does sound crazy, I don't want to play a game against something like that." Just reading the rules you think they are really out of line and make the game un-playable.

Well yesterday I played in a doubles tournament. I played orks and my partner played Tau. In our 3 games we faced 3 of the recently talked about OP lists.

First game was against Marines and a handful of IG. Marines came with a demi company and all of the extra razorbacks. There was A LOT to kill but my side only ended up losing by 1 point because I could not roll to get a single defcopta in from reserve. The other side had the secondary objective of "marked for death" on the defcopta and they got credit for the kill simply because it could not get on the table.

Second game we faced Eldar and Blood Angels. The Eldar player had a Wraithknight and the bikes with scatter lasers. Wraithknight did not see to do much to us, but the scatter laser bikes did wreck my ork bikes on the first turn before I got to move. After that they were tied up in combat with the orks for the rest of the game. Eldar also had the unit with the D weapons (whatever they are called.) They exploded a battle wagon but that was about it. Anyhow we ended up winning that game pretty handily on objectives and points.

Third game was against IG and the Skitari dudes. Skitari were tough and hard to get rid of, but did not seem to pack a lot of punch, to spite using the canticles (or whatever) to boost them up. I probably took the least amount of casualties in this game. We ended up shooting them off the relic in the last part of the game to win.

We ended up placing 4th overall in the tournament with what I think was a pretty "normal" list of Orks and Tau.

I realize this is 1 day and anecedotal evidence, but from my experience yesterday these "OP" things are not un-beatable by even a simple list of run of the mill units. Maybe we just had good matchups, or were playing against opponents who's skills were outmatched by my partner and I, or we had incredible luck? I don't know, but yesterday gives me some confidence things are nowhere near as bad as often reported. My orks really can run with just about anything out there with some solid play and a little bit of luck.

So how something looks on paper is a lot different than when actually on the table being played. So before you go refusing games or asking an opponent for a list change before you can play you might want to consider a game or 2 first. I am sure plenty will show up to add their own counter points to my observations from yesterday but that is ok. I just encourage people to try things out and see how it goes for you.

Thanks for sharing your experiences

By the way, space marines with only 1 Demi should not get the free vehicles. They need to take a full company.

I would echo that the free vehicles look better on paper, though drop pods worked pretty well for me. It's just something different and fun to play, not something massively overpowered.

Teaming Eldar with BA makes them average.

D weapons aren't so good against hordes, since they can't do any more than one wound to a single-wound model. They'd make short work of a Riptide or Stompa, but the lists with like 3-4 Riptides have kind of gone out of style and Stompas aren't that powerful to begin with, IIRC.

I'm impressed that you managed to catch the scatter bikes. >_>;

I don't think anyone's accused Skitarii of being OP lately, but they do seem solidly midtier, and it's interesting to hear your analysis of their strengths and weaknesses since I've been thinking of playing Skitarii. What models did they have on the field that didn't pack enough punch? BTW the Canticles of the Omnissiah are a Cult Mechanicus thing; Skitarii use Doctrina Imperatives, although there's a combined arms formation (which uses Knights too) that lets the Canticles apply to everything including Skitarii.

I agree that it's important to actually play against things. 40k is a complex game, and it's hard to actually tell how things will play out until a given model has been on the table enough times. I don't really blame people for freaking out about things like Eldar distortion weapons, though, because GW has historically been willing to invalidate whole codices and un-willing to discuss design decisions with players.

 Jewelfox wrote:

I'm impressed that you managed to catch the scatter bikes. >_>;

Glad I'm not the only one who thought that.

Doubles, with enough points for the marine player to go double company, means pretty big games. IME bigger games (3-4k points) are far more balanced than smaller ones.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Doubles, with enough points for the marine player to go double company, means pretty big games. IME bigger games (3-4k points) are far more balanced than smaller ones.

Well, and it helps to have enough unit density on the table so that highly mobile armies cannot just shoot, back up, shoot for the whole game.

 Xca|iber wrote:
Well, and it helps to have enough unit density on the table so that highly mobile armies cannot just shoot, back up, shoot for the whole game.

If the "solution" to balance problems is "clutter up the table so badly that movement isn't a factor and we just throw dice until someone wins" then I think that's a pretty clear sign that the game is broken beyond any hope of fixing.

Your post made me very happy. Thanks bruh. I like your attitude.

Martel732 wrote:
Teaming Eldar with BA makes them average.

Uhh... With adeptus mechanicus and space marines... Their average anyway... Don't sugar coat them please...

 Peregrine wrote:

 Xca|iber wrote:
Well, and it helps to have enough unit density on the table so that highly mobile armies cannot just shoot, back up, shoot for the whole game.

If the "solution" to balance problems is "clutter up the table so badly that movement isn't a factor and we just throw dice until someone wins" then I think that's a pretty clear sign that the game is broken beyond any hope of fixing.

Oh I agree completely. What I meant was that the reason big doubles games seem to work out better is because you're more likely to have a higher table density; it's the same reason MSU is effective. Certainly at some point you end up filling the table and it's back to just throwing dice at each other until someone gets tired of it and leaves. Basically, playing high-points 2v2 doesn't actually help the balance on a unit-by-unit basis; just the fact that there's more guns on the same amount of table can very partially offset some units' ability to attack with relative impunity.

But make no mistake; I'm not trying to defend the game. The current incarnation is so slow, clunky, and out-of-whack that I've completely lost all desire to play. (I mean, it's just sad to visit YMDC and see threads opening with "We all agree that this rule cannot function, so lets argue about RAI and HIWPI..."). And if I see any more "army of detachments made up of formations plus some stand-alone formations and a DLC dataslate" I'm gonna permanently roll my eyes back into my skull.

My experiences are way different. I'm a rather new player, but...

My first game against a Superheavy (Hellhammer). Almost my entire army died turn one from one shot. (Note the table was a little small. If it were larger it would have been two shots!)

My first game against plain 4++ reanimation Necrons with my horde of Imperial Guard Infantry and a Chimera. I lost everything by turn 3 and only killed 5 warriors with a single heavy flamer template from a Chimera. Wraiths killed one unit a turn and took absolutely no damage.

My first game against Eldar (and Dark Eldar): a 2v2, 1200 points verses our 1800, which they allowed because of how strong their lists were. The Eldar player's Wraithknight killed a Razorback and an Ironclad turn 1, I believe that's around 200 points. The Farseer did some StrD huge blast power, destroying a unit of marines. I don't have any ignore cover weapons besides flamers, so jetbikes and skimmers seem impossible to kill, let alone a Wraithknight. We still lost by turn 3.

I don't think I have a good list at all, I try to play with the units I want to instead of which ones are good. But it is a little frustrating to see how little of an effect I have on any opposing army.

I am recommended to take the one or two powerful units, which I don't want due to personal preference and/or I see it fail all the time. My only experiences with Punisher Pask for example, is seeing it die before it can do any damage. I also don't want a Wyvern in my army. I do plan on getting a Hellhound, but it's a matter of time, money and effort to get my current models finished and painted before buying the next. To be honest I probably shouldn't NEED any one specifc unit anyway.

I have attempted to refuse games, because I know I'll lose outright. I'm then talked into it. "Maybe I should try fighting this new unit." I think. "Maybe it won't be so bad." I do consider a game or two. Sadly they always seem to meet my expectations.

I've started to counteract these problems a little by plain requesting that I can take more points in my army. They get to play with their powerful army and get to feel more successful for destroying a larger point army, and I get to have more fun actually having a chance to win. Or at least last more than 3 turns.

I played against a fairly tame Eldar list, it only had 1 WK and had 2 WL in it. He tabled me turn 4. ITs fun having some random eldar character able to disarm your best characters of their CCW and then kill them easily

Colehkxix wrote:
My experiences are way different. I'm a rather new player, but...

My first game against a Superheavy (Hellhammer). Almost my entire army died turn one from one shot. (Note the table was a little small. If it were larger it would have been two shots!)

My first game against plain 4++ reanimation Necrons with my horde of Imperial Guard Infantry and a Chimera. I lost everything by turn 3 and only killed 5 warriors with a single heavy flamer template from a Chimera. Wraiths killed one unit a turn and took absolutely no damage.

My first game against Eldar (and Dark Eldar): a 2v2, 1200 points verses our 1800, which they allowed because of how strong their lists were. The Eldar player's Wraithknight killed a Razorback and an Ironclad turn 1, I believe that's around 200 points. The Farseer did some StrD huge blast power, destroying a unit of marines. I don't have any ignore cover weapons besides flamers, so jetbikes and skimmers seem impossible to kill, let alone a Wraithknight. We still lost by turn 3.

I don't think I have a good list at all, I try to play with the units I want to instead of which ones are good. But it is a little frustrating to see how little of an effect I have on any opposing army.

I am recommended to take the one or two powerful units, which I don't want due to personal preference and/or I see it fail all the time. My only experiences with Punisher Pask for example, is seeing it die before it can do any damage. I also don't want a Wyvern in my army. I do plan on getting a Hellhound, but it's a matter of time, money and effort to get my current models finished and painted before buying the next. To be honest I probably shouldn't NEED any one specifc unit anyway.

I have attempted to refuse games, because I know I'll lose outright. I'm then talked into it. "Maybe I should try fighting this new unit." I think. "Maybe it won't be so bad." I do consider a game or two. Sadly they always seem to meet my expectations.

I've started to counteract these problems a little by plain requesting that I can take more points in my army. They get to play with their powerful army and get to feel more successful for destroying a larger point army, and I get to have more fun actually having a chance to win. Or at least last more than 3 turns.

It helps to play by the rules. Eldricht storm is most certainly not strD.

Loborocket wrote:
Reading many posts here over the last few months there is always threads about how OP this list or that list is. Reading here I always think, "Wow this stuff does sound crazy, I don't want to play a game against something like that." Just reading the rules you think they are really out of line and make the game un-playable.

Well yesterday I played in a doubles tournament. I played orks and my partner played Tau. In our 3 games we faced 3 of the recently talked about OP lists.

First game was against Marines and a handful of IG. Marines came with a demi company and all of the extra razorbacks. There was A LOT to kill but my side only ended up losing by 1 point because I could not roll to get a single defcopta in from reserve. The other side had the secondary objective of "marked for death" on the defcopta and they got credit for the kill simply because it could not get on the table.

Second game we faced Eldar and Blood Angels. The Eldar player had a Wraithknight and the bikes with scatter lasers. Wraithknight did not see to do much to us, but the scatter laser bikes did wreck my ork bikes on the first turn before I got to move. After that they were tied up in combat with the orks for the rest of the game. Eldar also had the unit with the D weapons (whatever they are called.) They exploded a battle wagon but that was about it. Anyhow we ended up winning that game pretty handily on objectives and points.

Third game was against IG and the Skitari dudes. Skitari were tough and hard to get rid of, but did not seem to pack a lot of punch, to spite using the canticles (or whatever) to boost them up. I probably took the least amount of casualties in this game. We ended up shooting them off the relic in the last part of the game to win.

We ended up placing 4th overall in the tournament with what I think was a pretty "normal" list of Orks and Tau.

I realize this is 1 day and anecedotal evidence, but from my experience yesterday these "OP" things are not un-beatable by even a simple list of run of the mill units. Maybe we just had good matchups, or were playing against opponents who's skills were outmatched by my partner and I, or we had incredible luck? I don't know, but yesterday gives me some confidence things are nowhere near as bad as often reported. My orks really can run with just about anything out there with some solid play and a little bit of luck.

So how something looks on paper is a lot different than when actually on the table being played. So before you go refusing games or asking an opponent for a list change before you can play you might want to consider a game or 2 first. I am sure plenty will show up to add their own counter points to my observations from yesterday but that is ok. I just encourage people to try things out and see how it goes for you.

If you played doubles, and any part of the team was IG or BAs, then you have not played against OP lists. And people have already played with IG vs eldar, necrons, GKs and new marine formations. It does not end well for the IG players.

 vipoid wrote:

 Jewelfox wrote:

I'm impressed that you managed to catch the scatter bikes. >_>;

Glad I'm not the only one who thought that.

With (quite probably) 60" Ion Accelerators that can ignore cover?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Jewelfox wrote:

I'm impressed that you managed to catch the scatter bikes. >_>;

Glad I'm not the only one who thought that.

With (quite probably) 60" Ion Accelerators that can ignore cover?

Speak for yourself. I've beaten Eldar Spookylist and Skyhammer marines with IG+300ish points of inquisition.

Never beaten decurion but I've only played it once. I don't know what's supposed to be OP about GK.

the_scotsman wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Jewelfox wrote:

I'm impressed that you managed to catch the scatter bikes. >_>;

Glad I'm not the only one who thought that.

With (quite probably) 60" Ion Accelerators that can ignore cover?

Read what the OP wrote - those scatter bikes were caught by orks and tied up in melee.