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There has been a thread on the origins of the Grey Knights--it has been some really interesting reading! We did get sort of side tracked into where the Custodes came from and if they do or do not have a gene seed? If so is it the Emperor's? If not--where do they get their strength and fierce loyalty? There are some sources that seem to indicate they are more powerful than the space marine's and in other fluff literature to be at least equal to them. So--this thread is open for discussion.

Lexicanum states that Custodes are more powerful than Astartes, more like the earlier Thunder Warriors, and are also created through a similar process as the Thunder Warriors were (as source it mentions the story Blood Games by Dan Abnett, which I haven't read)

in one of the HH books, there a little chat about this. Apparently the Astartes do teamwork better. Perhaps in a one-on-one the average Custodian would win, but when the fight scales up, the Astartes do better.

 ColonelFazackerley wrote:
in one of the HH books, there a little chat about this. Apparently the Astartes do teamwork better. Perhaps in a one-on-one the average Custodian would win, but when the fight scales up, the Astartes do better.

Yes, Custodes work alone iirc

Yes I have heard that the Custodes seem to work well in more singular or perhaps smaller groups whereas the Astarte's Legions (and later Chapters) operate more in tandem with one another. If they don't have a gene seed--what do you suppose causes such fierce loyalty in the Custodes?

Are Thunder Warriors easier to produce than astartes? My impression is yes, since they are the transitional tech to the later legions. And it seemed like they could recruit anyone, of any age as a Thunder Warrior, where Astartes it is pretty impossible after 15-16.

Thunder warriors are shorter lived, less stable but brutal close combat monsters, utterly devastating in excess of marines.

Not as flexible, but the choice if you wanted something ripped into chunks

And not seen for thousands of years, they died out.

basicly Custodes are much more work intensive to make, requiring tailored GEing to be done on an individual level. however the end result is superior.

but they're much HARDER to make. basicly the custodes are hand crafted, whereas the space marines are a bit easier to mass produce but the end result is a slightly lower "per unit" quality.


now the unit tactics thing isn't a matter of their genetics but training. custodes are traiend to work individually where as Astartes are trained to work as part of a unified unit. I imagine this doctrinal differance is also going to vary from legion to legion. I imagine the space wolves are more individualistic then say... the Ultramarines

 Silverthorne wrote:
Are Thunder Warriors easier to produce than astartes? My impression is yes, since they are the transitional tech to the later legions. And it seemed like they could recruit anyone, of any age as a Thunder Warrior, where Astartes it is pretty impossible after 15-16.

I'd say no. The primarch project, and through it the Astartes, were created specifically as a means to more easily create an army of super soldiers. That is why the individually inferior Astartes replaced the Thunder Warriors.

On the subject of the Custodes, yes they are supposedly more powerful than most Astartes in 1v1 combat. The loyalty comes from never knowing anything else. They do not begin their lives as humans and become Custodes, they are vat-grown and "raised" as bodyguards.

In garro: sword of truth they say even a primarch would think twice before going toe to toe with a custode.

lordseamus wrote:Yes I have heard that the Custodes seem to work well in more singular or perhaps smaller groups whereas the Astarte's Legions (and later Chapters) operate more in tandem with one another. If they don't have a gene seed--what do you suppose causes such fierce loyalty in the Custodes?

Misconception. Geneseed does not make the recipient loyal to anything. Geneseed simply prepares the body to accept the rest of the implants.

Custodes are loyal for the same reason Sisters are loyal: Faith in and love of the Emperor. They doubtless have an iffy relationship with the Imperial Creed, but since they also have unrestricted access to the Emperor directly, they are probably true believers in him regardless of the doctrine they practice.

@FuryouMiko--Thank you. You are right...a Geneseed does not make the recipient loyal...etc... I like your comment. Thank you for this insight.

Custodes? These golden 'oomies with silly high hats? Yea, they are stronger than other tincans. Only 'cuz they helped Horus, Dorn and Mortarion in Battle of Gyros-Thravian warlord Gharkul didn't mount primarch skulls on his pointy sticks.

I'd say no. The primarch project, and through it the Astartes, were created specifically as a means to more easily create an army of super soldiers. That is why the individually inferior Astartes replaced the Thunder Warriors.

On the subject of the Custodes, yes they are supposedly more powerful than most Astartes in 1v1 combat. The loyalty comes from never knowing anything else. They do not begin their lives as humans and become Custodes, they are vat-grown and "raised" as bodyguards.

Okay now, a few things.

1.) the book that says Custodes don't work as a unit but as an individual was Fulgrim
2.) You mind citing the vat-grown thing?
3.) Physically, the Custodes are superior to Astartes, however, talent still plays a major role. Custodes are tailor-made to defend the Emperor and massacre Daemons in the Imperial Webway, however, many Astartes are simply more naturally skilled than Custodes. Also, Custodes would have heaps more experience than Astartes.

Something just occurred to me. When Magnus fethed up the Imperial Webway, the Emperor sealed it off, but many Daemons still get through, which is why the Custodes aren't just for ceremonial purposes. Now, we never actually get told the numbers of Daemons that go through, or the number of Custodes there are. So, hypothetically, there could be thousands and thousands of Custodes waging a never-ending war in the Webway. thoughts? Am I just being retahded?

Technically, you're right, but logically, I doubt there's that many custodes out there. It's a cool idea for them to be in an endless battle against the daemons. Making them is extremely difficult, but it wouldn't be the first time GW made a race/unit not be able to die out besides what reality says. (Looking at you space marines and incubi)

 2BlackJack1 wrote:
Technically, you're right, but logically, I doubt there's that many custodes out there. It's a cool idea for them to be in an endless battle against the daemons. Making them is extremely difficult, but it wouldn't be the first time GW made a race/unit not be able to die out besides what reality says. (Looking at you space marines and incubi)

You know, the funny thing is that Space Marine Chapters would be totally plausible if they weren't used as fething line infantry. That level of special forces is for dropping behind enemy lines and performing surgical strikes, not garrisoning a fething shrine world!

I thought that Magnus caused the break in the webway which resulted in the Emperor and the custodes fighting off daemons. That is what I thought he was doing while the heresy raged on.

 lordseamus wrote:
I thought that Magnus caused the break in the webway which resulted in the Emperor and the custodes fighting off daemons. That is what I thought he was doing while the heresy raged on.

The Emperor is basically just stopping those truly monolithic Daemons from marching through. It's like if a torpedo blasted a hole into the Hoover Dam, and a hastily-created plug was all that they had. The plug (the emprah) is keeping out the millions of gallons of water (Greater Daemons, Daemon Princes, Chaos Titans, etc. etc.), but, additional small patches (the Custodes) are needed to keep small leaks (normal Daemons) from springing free and eroding/destroying the larger patch.

 lordseamus wrote:
@FuryouMiko--Thank you. You are right...a Geneseed does not make the recipient loyal...etc... I like your comment. Thank you for this insight.

Although the flaws in the gene seed were exploited

IA: Codex Astartes
The Horus Heresy had revealed weaknesses in the geneseed of several Space Marine Legions which had been exaggerated by the accelerated zygote harvesting techniques needed to keep the huge Space Marine Legions up to strength. The powers of Chaos exploited this growing physical and mental corruption to turn Horus’s troops against the Emperor. The prime objective of the new Codex Astartes was to recognise and expunge these weaknesses.

IA: Word Bearers
The gene-seed of the Word Bearers was originally thought to be pure, but events subsequent to the Horus Heresy revealed the weaknesses inherent in their genetic make-up. The Space Marines of the Word Bearers have a marked tendency towards dogged, unquestioning belief and stubbornness that verges on insanity.

Codex: Space Marines 6th Ed
The Horus Heresy had also revealed weaknesses in the gene-seed of several Space Marine Legions. These defects had been exacerbated by the accelerated gene-seed cultivation techniques needed to keep the huge Space Marine Legions up to strength. Guilliman believed that the Chaos Powers were able to exploit the resultant physical and mental corruption to turn Horus’ troops against the Emperor.

 dusara217 wrote:


1.) the book that says Custodes don't work as a unit but as an individual was Fulgrim

Isn't it The First Heretic and where Argel Tal is watching the Custodes spar?

 dusara217 wrote:
2.) You mind citing the vat-grown thing?

I think this is also mention in First Heretic where Erebus mention to Argel Tal that he wants one to experiment on. It also could be in Collected Visions, which is one of the best sources on Custodes stuff. Lexicanum seems to suggest that Blood Games also tells us this.

 dusara217 wrote:

3.) Physically, the Custodes are superior to Astartes, however, talent still plays a major role. Custodes are tailor-made to defend the Emperor and massacre Daemons in the Imperial Webway, however, many Astartes are simply more naturally skilled than Custodes. Also, Custodes would have heaps more experience than Astartes.

Where I disagree with you in regards to them being created for Daemon killing, as I think this is just a by product of defending the palace after the breach by Magnus, I do agree with you about your other comments. Most Custodes might be larger and stronger than Marines. But it wouldn't be true in all cases like you say. Your average Custodes would probably be better than your average marine, but then when you get to sergeants and veterans it would possibly be a different story. I'm not sure if there would be any marines on a par with Valdor though.

 dusara217 wrote:
Something just occurred to me. When Magnus fethed up the Imperial Webway, the Emperor sealed it off, but many Daemons still get through, which is why the Custodes aren't just for ceremonial purposes. Now, we never actually get told the numbers of Daemons that go through, or the number of Custodes there are. So, hypothetically, there could be thousands and thousands of Custodes waging a never-ending war in the Webway. thoughts? Am I just being retahded?

Could be happening, but I think the Emperor is on the Golden Throne to keep the breach shut. There might be certain times when the Emperor is under strain because of say, something causing the Astronomicon to falter and him trying to reinforce this, causing him to divert power away from sealing the breach and Daemons to seep through.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

Isn't it The First Heretic and where Argel Tal is watching the Custodes spar?

That is correct, I just read it a couple of days ago. While the WB are making a world compliant during their post-Monarchia pilgrimage frenzy, Argel Tal and his squad are watching the Custodes fighting and they notice something strange about how they fight. They quickly realise that the Custodes are not fighting as a unit but as individual warriors. That very word is used - the Custodes are warriors, not soldiers like the Astartes. A point is made about how the Word Bearers wear grey armour and fight in packs like the wolves they chromatically resemble, whereas the golden Custodes fight individually like lions. Space Marines sure like the whole wolf vs lion thing.

Are we sure they are stronger didn't a world eater put his fist through one?

That is one of the reasons why I say average Custodes Because yes, Taghore put his fist through a fully armoured Custodian and tore out his spine in The Outcast Dead. The Custodian wasn't on active duty any more due to injuries, but still.

Because yes, Taghore put his fist through a fully armoured Custodian and tore out his spine in The Outcast Dead. The Custodian wasn't on active duty any more due to injuries, but still.

Its also from the outcast dead opening escape sequence, not BLs finest example of fluff writing

 Ratius wrote:

Because yes, Taghore put his fist through a fully armoured Custodian and tore out his spine in The Outcast Dead. The Custodian wasn't on active duty any more due to injuries, but still.

Its also from the outcast dead opening escape sequence, not BLs finest example of fluff writing

Unfortunately, yes

I also wonder--do the custodes live the same long lives as there astartes counterparts (unless they get their spine ripped out or die for the emperor)? I wonder if some of the custodes are around from the days of the heresy in regular 40k?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Lexicanum does mention they are processed or made differntly than SPs and that each Custode is an investment for the Imperium. It also mentions that they used to have the best power armor and weaponry.

 lordseamus wrote:
I also wonder--do the custodes live the same long lives as there astartes counterparts (unless they get their spine ripped out or die for the emperor)? I wonder if some of the custodes are around from the days of the heresy in regular 40k?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Lexicanum does mention they are processed or made differntly than SPs and that each Custode is an investment for the Imperium. It also mentions that they used to have the best power armor and weaponry.

Definitely yes to the first, doubtful to the second, and to the third: Custodes definitely have the best weaponry and Power Armour available to the Imperium of Man.

Also, my mistake, I could have sworn the EC were the ones to talk about the Custodes on Monarchia.

Custodes can be compared to custom built cars vs space marines who are "mass" produced.

@leiwe--seems to be the case.

Basically, whether one or the other is "stronger" doesn't mean much. That a World Eater punched through one does not mean the World Eater was stronger than the Custodes, only that he was strong enough to put his fist through him... which he may well have been able to punch through 2 other Marines at the same time.

As to which is better? Depends on what you want to accomplish. If it's a military objective? Space Marines, definitely. Want one guy dead as dead gets in a toe-to-toe fight? The Custodes is your optimal choice.

I have also read in the Lexicanum that some or all (?) go without armor and are tattooed in the post heresy era. ? Seriously?