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Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




I recently picked up my second Tie Defender, and I realize that Dual Defenders is not the best for 100 points, Last night I played two games with Defenders and lost, my build was

Rexler Brath (52)
TIE Defender (37), Heavy Laser Cannon (7), Predator (3), Cluster Missiles (4), Munitions Fail Safe (1)

Colonel Vessery (48)
TIE Defender (35), Heavy Laser Cannon (7), Veteran Instinct (1), Cluster Missiles (4), Munitions Fail safe (1)

I realize that Dual Defenders aren't the best, but I'm just playing for fun, so I'm looking for builds with dual defenders that have the chance to win a game. thanks!
   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Western Kentucky

There was a dual defender list that placed top 4 in a regional of like 70 people that is very close to yours. It can do well, it just takes some practice because defenders fly so differently.

I think the regional winner had shield upgrades instead of munitions, and lone wolf on vessery instead of vet instincts. I think he didn't have cluster missiles either. Maybe it was ion missiles. Long story short you're in the ballpark.

As for tips, try to not do the 4 k all the time. Its very predictable, so if you can, try to do other moves when possible.

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 MrMoustaffa wrote:
There was a dual defender list that placed top 4 in a regional of like 70 people that is very close to yours. It can do well, it just takes some practice because defenders fly so differently.

I think the regional winner had shield upgrades instead of munitions, and lone wolf on vessery instead of vet instincts. I think he didn't have cluster missiles either. Maybe it was ion missiles. Long story short you're in the ballpark.

As for tips, try to not do the 4 k all the time. Its very predictable, so if you can, try to do other moves when possible.


https://youtu.be/vyHxl5vnDas?t=4m

That's the Top 4 game from the dual defender list, playing the eventual winner. Sound quality isn't great because I was using the built in microphone on the logitech cam.

   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






Drop the cluster missile gimmick for engine upgrades on both ships. You need maneuverability to have any hope of winning with a 2-ship list, especially a 2-ship list that doesn't have focus + evade stacks/R2-D2/etc.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Thanks for the Feedback!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/04 01:54:10


 
   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Western Kentucky

 Peregrine wrote:
Drop the cluster missile gimmick for engine upgrades on both ships. You need maneuverability to have any hope of winning with a 2-ship list, especially a 2-ship list that doesn't have focus + evade stacks/R2-D2/etc.

I don't think the regional list used engine upgrades. It is a 3/3/3/3/ ship with evade after all. It ain't bulletproof by any means but that's darn tough for a small ship, especially with evade. EDIT: I'm an idiot, they don't have evade

Plus engine upgrade isn't life or death if flown right. For example, you can in effect pull a hard 1 white turn by pulling a hard 3 and barrel rolling.

The thing is its just so different to fly. I intend to try double defender myself as my next main list to break the monotony of TIE Swarms and squints that I've been using as my mainstays.

I intend to use the following

Rex: HLC, lone wolf, stealth device, ion missiles

Vessery: HLC, predator, stealth device

100 on the nose and should be fun to fly. Stealth is mainly to help them on that initial pass. I honestly don't see much difference between it and hull or shield upgrades as I have 3 shield anyways.

Oh yeah and OP I found this, its the dual defender guy on the FFG forums apparently https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/179624-putting-my-money-where-my-mouth-is-on-tie-defenders-step-3-or-holy-crap-defenders-are-going-to-regionals/

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/04 03:05:32


'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 MrMoustaffa wrote:
especially with evade.


Might want to check that action bar again.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Western Kentucky

 Peregrine wrote:
 MrMoustaffa wrote:
especially with evade.


Might want to check that action bar again.

Yeah that's what a 10 hour day work schedule in 100 degree heat will do to you, edited the post.


'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
Made in us
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer





Mississippi

We played a 200 pt. Rebel vs. Empire game tonight that had a Defender in it that made our team squirm; Instead of the Heavy Cannon, I'd suggest the Flachete Cannon (3 pts, Range 3, 3 attack dice, on a hit Stresses the opponent) if you come across opponents who like to use Push the Limits - really ruins their day.

It never ends well 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Stormonu wrote:
Instead of the Heavy Cannon, I'd suggest the Flachete Cannon (3 pts, Range 3, 3 attack dice, on a hit Stresses the opponent) if you come across opponents who like to use Push the Limits - really ruins their day.


You might want to read the card again. The flechette cannon only gives you a stress token if you don't have one already, so it does nothing (other than possibly a point of damage) to ships with PTL.

(This of course is one reason why the flechette cannon is utterly useless and should never appear in any remotely serious list.)

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Rough Rider with Boomstick





I'm the player who ran the dual Defender list at the KC Regional. I'd say in any 2xD list, you want some points spent on defensive mods. I see engine as a very meta-specific counter to Dash and IGs, in general I think defensive mods are better. 4 times out of 5 that I want a maneuver during my action phase, Barrel Roll does the trick.

For the OP, even though it's a few weeks old, the Clusters and Failsafes are a waste. Run the math on an HLC with Focus opposed by one defense roll compared to Clusters without dice modifications against 2 defense rolls. The HLC is almost always better.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Just wait a few weeks when the Punisher drops. Then you can equip your Defenders with the TIE MK2 upgrade (1 pt) and all those white banks become Green.
That should give you quite a few options making the 1 and 2 90 degree stress much less problematic.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Minneapolis, MN

The main issue with Engine Upgrade is that the action economy forces you to choose between doing boost actions or doing the Focus and target lock actions that both ships require to really get the most out of their pilot abilities.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/28 21:20:28


 
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain




And the defender's action economy's not great to start with...

That said, it depends if you're trying to use two named defenders or just two generic defenders - a Fleet Officer in a Lambda Shuttle gives you the ability to hand out the focus tokens you otherwise lack - and at range 1-2, not range 1 like most support ships - which means you can use your native action for boosting.

The Engine Upgrade defender isn't devastating but it's very tasty once you master it. Using boost after you come out of a koiogran turn is its big party piece, and is as close as the empire can currently come to a segnor's loop.



The problem with two named defenders in a squad is that their pilot skill isn't as high as a lot of small, elite squads (like TIE interceptors or TIE Advanced) and their pilot abilities don't complement each other - Vessery wants everyone to be Target Lock-ing and shooting first, whilst Brath (the higher PS pilot in reality) wants to be focus-ing and shooting last (once an opponent's shields are down).

I'd therefore pick one named defender and build your squad around it. Taking a second TIE defender is fine, just don't waste points on the second named guy.

I'd never take a missile and a cannon upgrade on the same fighter because you can't use both simultaneously - not to mention that the Defender's Primary 3 isn't exactly rubbish to start with, especially with the Colonel's kind-of-fire-control-system.


If you want Colonel Vessery

Vessery and a second generic defender work well - Vessery gets his free target locks because he has a higher PS, and the odds of someone taking out a TIE defender before he can do so are pretty low. Plus, you gain back points for weapon upgrades or some wingmen. His ability does work very well with Cluster Missiles.

A nice squad (because it's very simple) is:

Colonel Vessery with Cluster Missiles
Delta Squadron Pilot
Delta Squadron Pilot

Alternatively, if you only want (or only have) 2 defenders, consider

Colonel Vessery with Cluster Missiles, Engine Upgrade, Outmaneuver
Delta Squadron Pilot
Academy Pilot
Academy Pilot

Vessery's ability to pull turns out of back-to-back koiograns means triggering outmaneuver shouldn't be too hard, and a cluster missile with cycling target locks and an evade dice penalty could easily one-shot a small ship.


If you want Rexler Brath

Brath needs two things to work - he needs his target's shields down and he needs a 'spare' focus token in addition to any other attack boosts. I wouldn't take an engine upgrade on him because he's going to need all the actions he can spare.

A Heavy laser cannon isn't a bad buy, then either a shuttle with fleet officer or a squad leader (the problem with the latter is that only Vader is really up to the task and he's damn expensive too - plus he'll have difficulty holding formation with a defender).

Push The Limit is an option, but TIE defender have trouble shedding stress. Come Wave VII, Twin Ion Engines MkII will really shake this up - making all the banked manouvres green and giving the TIE Defender one of the best green dials in the game alongside the A-wing and TIE Interceptor. If your opponents will let you proxy it, or once it arrives, I'd suggest it probably becomes the go-to modification for a defender.








If I wanted to try and field both named guys, then you want to try and swap their firing order - I suggest Decoy works well.


Rexler Brath
- Heavy Laser Cannon
- Push The Limit
- Twin Ion Engines MkII

Colonel Vessery
- Heavy Laser Cannon
- Decoy
- Engine Upgrade

That's 96 points - so a cheap missile on one pilot or the other is possible; Ion Pulse Missiles might be nice to mess with a Falcon or Decimator, or Cluster Missles on Vessery for a range 2 one-two punch.

Brath lines up on the enemy and rolls in slowly, using his speed 1-2 green straights and banks, and focus/target locks using Push The Limit.

Vessery hits the gas and uses boost or barrel roll as he sees fit, as he can feed off Brath's Target lock as long as he stays within range 1-2.

In the combat phase, Vessery uses Decoy to swap PS with Brath and shoots first, getting a free target lock to modify his cannon's results - hopefully flattening the target's shields. Brath then fires, using the target lock to do as much damage as possible then spending the focus to convert all those results (effectively) to critical hits.


Devastating? Probably not. But not unworkable.

Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Minneapolis, MN

locarno24 wrote:
Colonel Vessery with Cluster Missiles, Engine Upgrade, Outmaneuver
Delta Squadron Pilot
Academy Pilot
Academy Pilot

Vessery's ability to pull turns out of back-to-back koiograns means triggering outmaneuver shouldn't be too hard, and a cluster missile with cycling target locks and an evade dice penalty could easily one-shot a small ship.

One suggestion I'd have here is to use Dark Curse with a Targeting Computer in place of the two Academy Pilots. Being the same PS as Vessery, he can act as a target lock support ship for him, and still be able to spend it right after Vessery shoots (while also inherently being difficult to shoot down, due to his pilot ability).

Once the new Ion Engine modification is released, I suspect we'll see more of those stress-based Elite Talents being used Defenders.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/29 17:18:39


 
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain




Another very good support ship for Vessery (because it's tough, cheap and target lock-capable) is the TIE Bomber.

Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
 
   
 
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