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Hi guys,

There's no points cost for units. Hopefully this is a temporary thing...

I noticed that in the Lizardman compendium most units could be summoned. Using their summoning cost and how many models you get from summoning them I believe we can see the cost of most units in the compendium:

Kroq-Gar on Carnosaur: 100 points for 1
Saurus Oldblood: 50 points for 1
Saurus Oldblood on Cold One: 50 points for 1
Chakax: 50 points for 1
Gor-Rok: 50 points for 1
Scar Veteran with Standard: 50 points for 1
Scar Veteran on Carnosaur: 100 points for 1
Saurus Warriors: 50 points for 10
Temple Guard: 50 points for 5
Saurus Cavalry: 50 points for 5
Tehenhauin, Prophet of Sotek: 50 points for 1
Tetto'Eko: 50 points for 1
Oxyotl: 50 points for 1
Skink Priest: 50 points for 1
Skink Chief: 50 points for 1
Skinks: 50 points for 10
Chameleon Skinks: 60 points for 5
Terradon Riders: 60 points for 3
Ripperdactyl Riders: 60 points for 3
Skink Handlers: 40 points for 3
Salamanders: 60 points for 3
Razordons: 60 points for 3
Kroxigor: 60 points for 3
Stegadons: 100 points for 1
Engine of the Gods: 100 points for 1
Bastiladon: 80 points for 1
Troglodon: 100 points for 1

Do you guys think this is a good start for assigning value to units?

Edit: It seems I didn't think this through! It's much harder to cast one 10 strength spell with 2D6 than it is to cast two 5 strength spells. Perhaps I should look into probabilities.

I noticed you used all round numbers here (50, 100, 80 etc).

I get why you'd do that, but I think it might be best to drop the last zero as it is unnecessary.

But an interesting method you used to get those points. It might be interesting if both sides deployed only a mage, and we had to summon our whole armies. Do you summon the easy one you're sure to get, or risk wasting your action trying to get a big one?

I like the idea, OP, but you touch on a fundamental point.

I'm excited for AoS, I have RPG friends who would be excited for this, but I'm genuinely confused at how we're supposed to have fair games without a balancing mechanic (i.e. points).

And part of the confusion is, is GW's idea that players who bought more models can field them against someone who has less and have an advantage? From the 4 pages of rules:

"Armies can be as big as you like, and you can
use as many models from your collection as
you wish."

EDIT - At the end of each book, there's these Formation-like things (i.e. the Empire has a formation called the State Troop Detachment). I'm not a Fantasy player (in fact, I thought AoS would give me incentive to be), but do these Formations seem balanced against the other Formations in other books? As in, if players all agree just to build one of the Formations up, would they be fair to play against one another please?

It seems obvious that units of equal casting value are intended to be equal, but I find it difficult to work out how to value units of other casting values accordingly.

If someone brings a Stegadon, and their opponent brings a Bloodthirster, then it works out about equal because they're both casting value 10.

Then if they bring 1 unit of 5 chameleon skinks, the chaos player can bring a bloodcrusher, and it'll be equal.

But how does a Stegadon and Bloodthirster compare to the Skinks and Bloodcrusher?

Edit: Perhaps using the probability of failure for summoning a unit, we can work out a fair cost?

Probability of failure when summoning some Temple Guard is 6/36. We could assign a value of say, 6 or 60 to this unit to make it easy. The probability of failure when summoning a Stegadon is 30/36, so this could be 30 or 300 points. Perhaps this is a better method. I'll try and work out how effective the units are and see if this is balanced at all.

- Probability of failure- that's a good idea.



Here's another bit of math you can start doing to compare how units behave on the battlefield: Hit absorption and wound causation.

- start out by calculating out the killing and living potential of each unit.

For example, a Bloodthirster has 14 wounds, and a 4+ save, so on average you need to cause 28 wounds to kill him.

Likewise, Reikguard Knights are take 4 hits to kill, while Crossbowmen take 1.17 (one and one sixth) hits to kill.


Calculating the damage he does is a little crazier (especially with all of the special abilities attached).

A Reiksguard Knight has three attacks, two of them hit on 4+, and one hits on 3+ and they all wound on 4+. The averages I get from that is that he makes about 2/3 (.667) of a hit each time he attacks.

Using those numbers can give you a good baseline to work from. In all fairness, this ignores how well the unit moves, and that can be a big deal.

 odinsgrandson wrote:
- Probability of failure- that's a good idea.



Here's another bit of math you can start doing to compare how units behave on the battlefield: Hit absorption and wound causation.

- start out by calculating out the killing and living potential of each unit.

For example, a Bloodthirster has 14 wounds, and a 4+ save, so on average you need to cause 28 wounds to kill him.

Likewise, Reikguard Knights are take 4 hits to kill, while Crossbowmen take 1.17 (one and one sixth) hits to kill.


Calculating the damage he does is a little crazier (especially with all of the special abilities attached).

A Reiksguard Knight has three attacks, two of them hit on 4+, and one hits on 3+ and they all wound on 4+. The averages I get from that is that he makes about 2/3 (.667) of a hit each time he attacks.

Using those numbers can give you a good baseline to work from. In all fairness, this ignores how well the unit moves, and that can be a big deal.

There's a lot to take into account! Which is why I was hoping that the casting strength would help give a base points cost for many units before moving on to something like that.

There's also the idea of using the inverse sum of the probabilities for points cost rather than the chance of failure. In that case a casting value 5 unit would be 100 points, 6 would be 150 points and 10 would be 330 points.

I'll take a look at the units more closely when I have some time!

I think an easy way is wounds x base size. So Glotkin is 18 x 4 (extra big base) = 76. Wrath monger are 3 x 2 = 6 per model.

 thejughead wrote:
I think an easy way is wounds x base size. So Glotkin is 18 x 4 (extra big base) = 76. Wrath monger are 3 x 2 = 6 per model.

The problem with that is, that a Skavenslave or Clanrat is definitely not equal to a Stormvermin.

I believe they work the same way as Skinks, Saurus Warriors and Temple Guard do. 10 Skinks is worth 10 Saurus Warriors which is worth 5 Temple Guard. Which in turn are equal to 10 Skavenslaves, 10 Clanrats and 5 Stormvermin.

I don't think I have the points cost thing worked out correctly. I don't believe going by wounds is correct either. Nor is going by a standard size unit from a warscroll.

 thejughead wrote:
I think an easy way is wounds x base size. So Glotkin is 18 x 4 (extra big base) = 76. Wrath monger are 3 x 2 = 6 per model.

Additional problem is that in AOS you can base the miniature on whatever base you want now.

If you were determined to make it work, you'd need to make force orgs a thing and no special characters.

Then you'd need to take the really big game changers, things like Bloodthirsters, Tomb Kings on Necrosphinx, and probably anything with 12 wounds or more and put them in a Lords of War type category.

(Seriously, Royal Warsphinx are great. 12+ wounds and take half damage? All for the same "points cost" as a regular tomb prince on foot!)

Then you would need to take anything that hits and wounds on 4's or better and move them into an elite category.

Everything else is probably just fine as core troops tend to balance out.

So like, you might have a format of say..

2/50/25/1

2 Characters, 50 general wounds, 25 elite wounds, and 1 lord of war which can be added to any category.

Guys, points are easily comped by the Sudden Death rules.

It's really not hard to grasp. Your friend has 1000+ models and you have 10? Kill 1 unit of his and win. Or just castle 1 model and win. Or just give him the finger...

 Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:
Guys, points are easily comped by the Sudden Death rules.

It's really not hard to grasp. Your friend has 1000+ models and you have 10? Kill 1 unit of his and win. Or just castle 1 model and win. Or just give him the finger...

To bad this isnt balanced or fun.

The point of have a points base is for a balanced game.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:
Guys, points are easily comped by the Sudden Death rules.

It's really not hard to grasp. Your friend has 1000+ models and you have 10? Kill 1 unit of his and win. Or just castle 1 model and win. Or just give him the finger...

To bad this isnt balanced or fun.

The point of have a points base is for a balanced game.

How does Sudden Death not balance the game? If your opponent has 30 models and you have 20, all you have to do is KILL ONE UNIT and you win... It equalizes any disadvantage of being outnumbered.

Besides, the game is designed for fun, friendly games. Not ultra-meta tourney list building junk.

I see the merits of all the above methods to simulate a points cost system. I like how you considered not just Wounds, for example, but some sort of Wounds x Base Size, or Summon Cost x Success Probability. However, I also realised the the methodologies, the negotiations to pick a way to pick armies, to work out simply what to bring to the game is becoming more complicated than playing the game itself.

I saw the Sudden Death rules earlier and it just seemed like something to exploit rather than to balance the game. I dunno, I mean it's like, "You have 10 Core models in a unit? I won't bring 1000 models, but I'll bring 7 Bloodthirsters. Oh! You have a third more miniatures than me, so I guess I'll choose to Sudden Death Blunt your unit with all my Bloodthirsters. Buy more expensive models next time, newb."

These considers make it difficult to recommend AoS to others, like the over-simplistic rules exist only to be abused.

 Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:
Guys, points are easily comped by the Sudden Death rules.

It's really not hard to grasp. Your friend has 1000+ models and you have 10? Kill 1 unit of his and win. Or just castle 1 model and win. Or just give him the finger...

To bad this isnt balanced or fun.

The point of have a points base is for a balanced game.

How does Sudden Death not balance the game? If your opponent has 30 models and you have 20, all you have to do is KILL ONE UNIT and you win... It equalizes any disadvantage of being outnumbered.

Besides, the game is designed for fun, friendly games. Not ultra-meta tourney list building junk.

I have 1 model, my opponent has 2.

My 1 model is Nagash. They have 2 Dragon Slayers. I get Sudden Death rules...

(Not that I would play it like this (I'd be the Dragon Slayer side))

Rihgu wrote:

 Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:
Guys, points are easily comped by the Sudden Death rules.

It's really not hard to grasp. Your friend has 1000+ models and you have 10? Kill 1 unit of his and win. Or just castle 1 model and win. Or just give him the finger...

To bad this isnt balanced or fun.

The point of have a points base is for a balanced game.

How does Sudden Death not balance the game? If your opponent has 30 models and you have 20, all you have to do is KILL ONE UNIT and you win... It equalizes any disadvantage of being outnumbered.

Besides, the game is designed for fun, friendly games. Not ultra-meta tourney list building junk.

I have 1 model, my opponent has 2.

My 1 model is Nagash. They have 2 Dragon Slayers. I get Sudden Death rules...

(Not that I would play it like this (I'd be the Dragon Slayer side))

Realistically, unless you play with a bunch of , this, or anything like it will never happen.

Thanks
austin

Basing it on model count is bad.

My group have been play testing since the rules came out and have found good balance when you agree to wound totals and not model count.

 Redbad wrote:

Rihgu wrote:

 Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:
Guys, points are easily comped by the Sudden Death rules.

It's really not hard to grasp. Your friend has 1000+ models and you have 10? Kill 1 unit of his and win. Or just castle 1 model and win. Or just give him the finger...

To bad this isnt balanced or fun.

The point of have a points base is for a balanced game.

How does Sudden Death not balance the game? If your opponent has 30 models and you have 20, all you have to do is KILL ONE UNIT and you win... It equalizes any disadvantage of being outnumbered.

Besides, the game is designed for fun, friendly games. Not ultra-meta tourney list building junk.

I have 1 model, my opponent has 2.

My 1 model is Nagash. They have 2 Dragon Slayers. I get Sudden Death rules...

(Not that I would play it like this (I'd be the Dragon Slayer side))

Realistically, unless you play with a bunch of , this, or anything like it will never happen.

Thanks
austin

exactly.

I never realized so many gamers were incapable of self-regulating their games. This is serious getting ridiculous how some people are taking this... "OMG MY OPPONENT CAN BRING 100000 MODELS! UNFAIR AND UNBALANCED!"

Simple, don't play him/her.

It's not that. The problem is that until you've played a few dozen games it's impossible to know whether the game is even or not. That's the kind of thing most game companies pay playtesters for, or release beta rules to determine, rather than just shoving that responsibility on the players.

Look at this way: in 40k, despite its imbalance, by knowing what's good or bad I can build a list that I know will be fair against a list of similar size. On the other hand, even with two players with the best intentions in the world won't have a clue if they're in for an even game or not.

I am sorry but it has went the way of epic dumb it down to epic 40k make it pointless to play have some dumbasses try and claim it's good cancel the whole thing from your shops a month or 2 later

Warhammer is dead that's about the size of it morn and move on although that could be the problem there is nothing good fantasy wise to move on to

You know, Epic is often praised as one of the better rulesets GW has devised...

@ OP - Good call on using summoning to regulate points costs etc. Seeing as multiple armies can do this, I'll be sure to try this out.

Kommissar Waaaghrick wrote:
EDIT - At the end of each book, there's these Formation-like things (i.e. the Empire has a formation called the State Troop Detachment). I'm not a Fantasy player (in fact, I thought AoS would give me incentive to be), but do these Formations seem balanced against the other Formations in other books? As in, if players all agree just to build one of the Formations up, would they be fair to play against one another please?

This was my first though and yes, at a glance the formations do some to be equal, as long as you stick to the minimum amount of models for each unit and don't take upgrades (such as a dragon on your leader) unless your opponent does the same.

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:I never realized so many gamers were incapable of self-regulating their games. This is serious getting ridiculous how some people are taking this... "OMG MY OPPONENT CAN BRING 100000 MODELS! UNFAIR AND UNBALANCED!"

Simple, don't play him/her.

Yet in pick-up games, my opponent is well within his right to bring 1000 models or, of greater concern, lots of really powerful models that my equal number of normal models have no hope of standing up against. Yes, reasonable people can work out a balance, but whereas previously I'd turn up to a pick up game and my opponent and I would agree on, say, 2000pts and we'd both know what we were doing, now we have to sit down, compare our collections and GUESS what will be balanced. Players should not have to regulate their own games in this way, and anyone who thinks Sudden Death makes for a balanced, fun game in the majority of situations is, with all due respect, in denial.

 The Shadow wrote:
@ OP - Good call on using summoning to regulate points costs etc. Seeing as multiple armies can do this, I'll be sure to try this out.

Kommissar Waaaghrick wrote:
EDIT - At the end of each book, there's these Formation-like things (i.e. the Empire has a formation called the State Troop Detachment). I'm not a Fantasy player (in fact, I thought AoS would give me incentive to be), but do these Formations seem balanced against the other Formations in other books? As in, if players all agree just to build one of the Formations up, would they be fair to play against one another please?

This was my first though and yes, at a glance the formations do some to be equal, as long as you stick to the minimum amount of models for each unit and don't take upgrades (such as a dragon on your leader) unless your opponent does the same.

Cool, that's at least a benchmark, one which I think our FLGS group can agree on.

And it's just 1 option, should people choose to take it. Of course, nothing can be perfectly balanced, but it's within the plus or minus.

This is cool. I can see us doing mini-modeling projects for Fantasy, looks like fun.

 Kommissar Waaaghrick wrote:
I see the merits of all the above methods to simulate a points cost system. I like how you considered not just Wounds, for example, but some sort of Wounds x Base Size, or Summon Cost x Success Probability. However, I also realised the the methodologies, the negotiations to pick a way to pick armies, to work out simply what to bring to the game is becoming more complicated than playing the game itself.

I saw the Sudden Death rules earlier and it just seemed like something to exploit rather than to balance the game. I dunno, I mean it's like, "You have 10 Core models in a unit? I won't bring 1000 models, but I'll bring 7 Bloodthirsters. Oh! You have a third more miniatures than me, so I guess I'll choose to Sudden Death Blunt your unit with all my Bloodthirsters. Buy more expensive models next time, newb."

These considers make it difficult to recommend AoS to others, like the over-simplistic rules exist only to be abused.

The point is to sell models any fun had buy customers is accidental.