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One of the warlord traits grants your army stealth in ruins.

Under the stealth entry it states:

A unit... counts it's cover save as being 1 point better than normal. The rule is often presented as Stealth (X) .... If this is the case, the unit only gains the benefit whilst it is in terrain of the specified type.

Jink:

If the unit Jinks, all models in the unit with this special rule gain a 4+ cover save until...

It seems to me that models jinking in ruins that had Stealth (Ruins) would treat their Jink save as a 3+. Unintuitive but there is nothing states that this improvement only applies to the ruin cover save. The rules of multiple cover save don't seem to address this topic.

Thoughts?

That is absolutely correct.

Just imagine they're jinking... stealthily.

If you have "Stealth" by itself, then you get +1 to all cover saves, which Jinking is. Stealth (Ruins) gives you +1 to cover saves "whilst it is in Ruins", but not at any other time (Edit: note, not a big deal here, as Ruins are 4+ cover, so Stealth(Ruins) gives you a 3+ cover anyways just like having generalized Stealth and Jinking would give). Jinking while not in Ruins would not give +1 to the save in this case.

If for some reason you had Stealth (Forests), which normally only give a 5+ cover save, and jinked while in them, then that +1 cover save WOULD then apply, and give you a 3+ cover save as opposed to the regular 4+ you'd otherwise get.

 Yarium wrote:
If you have "Stealth" by itself, then you get +1 to all cover saves, which Jinking is. Stealth (Ruins) gives you +1 to cover saves "whilst it is in Ruins", but not at any other time (Edit: note, not a big deal here, as Ruins are 4+ cover, so Stealth(Ruins) gives you a 3+ cover anyways just like having generalized Stealth and Jinking would give). Jinking while not in Ruins would not give +1 to the save in this case.

If for some reason you had Stealth (Forests), which normally only give a 5+ cover save, and jinked while in them, then that +1 cover save WOULD then apply, and give you a 3+ cover save as opposed to the regular 4+ you'd otherwise get.

This is a very big deal for the new Ravenwing. The bikes get a rerollable 4+ which is better than a straight 3+ saving throw, however the rules state you MUST take the best save. So in this case taking that warlord trait can hurt you. Moreover a 3+ rerollable is a huge boon. So depending on this interpretation that world trait is either fabulous or atrocious.

The rules do not state as you claim, which is why I quoted them. The say that you gain the stealth USR when you happen to be in ruins. Stealth improves your cover saves by one, it doesn't qualify only certain ones. Jinking is a cover save. Thus it is improved if your model happens to be in ruins. I'm hoping to see if someone can produce a reasoned challenge to this.

A worthy side discussion: does being obscured by ruins also count as being in ruins? I've found people generally play it this way without questioning it but hmm... not sure that's right anymore.

I believe being obscured by intervening terrain grants a 5+ save

How about this.

An independant character joins a unit of bikes. the IC stays in ruins, gaining stealth (ruins) from the rule. the rest of the bikes move into the open but out of ruins, but staying in coherency with the IC. The IC confers Stealth (ruins) to the unit so would they get the +1 to a save then?

Seems so

Jink applies a set value of 4+.
Stealth gives a +1 to cover saves.

Which one is applied last?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I hope I'm wrong about that, but it seems to me that Stealth and Jink don't stack.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But that wouldn't make any sense, because then Stealth and ANY cover save wouldn't stack.

So what am I doing wrong here logically?

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

So what am I doing wrong here logically?

Stealth and Jink do stack. Darkshrouds work the same way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jadedknight wrote:

This is a very big deal for the new Ravenwing. The bikes get a rerollable 4+ which is better than a straight 3+ saving throw, however the rules state you MUST take the best save.

The rules only say "best". If the 4+ rerollable is "better" than the 3+, you would use that.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Jink applies a set value of 4+.
Stealth gives a +1 to cover saves.

Which one is applied last?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I hope I'm wrong about that, but it seems to me that Stealth and Jink don't stack.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But that wouldn't make any sense, because then Stealth and ANY cover save wouldn't stack.

So what am I doing wrong here logically?

technically, you are not modifying the 4+ you are modifying the roll on the d6

you still need to make 4+, but add 1 to whatever you roll

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Jink applies a set value of 4+.
Stealth gives a +1 to cover saves.

Which one is applied last?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I hope I'm wrong about that, but it seems to me that Stealth and Jink don't stack.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But that wouldn't make any sense, because then Stealth and ANY cover save wouldn't stack.

So what am I doing wrong here logically?

Jink is not a set value. It is a value. A set value is a modifier, this is providing a new value.

 jadedknight wrote:
This is a very big deal for the new Ravenwing. The bikes get a rerollable 4+ which is better than a straight 3+ saving throw, however the rules state you MUST take the best save. So in this case taking that warlord trait can hurt you. Moreover a 3+ rerollable is a huge boon. So depending on this interpretation that world trait is either fabulous or atrocious.

The rules do not state as you claim, which is why I quoted them. The say that you gain the stealth USR when you happen to be in ruins. Stealth improves your cover saves by one, it doesn't qualify only certain ones. Jinking is a cover save. Thus it is improved if your model happens to be in ruins. I'm hoping to see if someone can produce a reasoned challenge to this.

A worthy side discussion: does being obscured by ruins also count as being in ruins? I've found people generally play it this way without questioning it but hmm... not sure that's right anymore.

I took the words you posted, which I assumed were the direct quotes from the rulebook. By what is posted, it applies.

Order of operations:

1. Bike unit (which has Stealth(Forest) for whatever reason) is targeted by a shooting attack.
2. Controller of bike unit has option to declare jinking and does so. This bike unit now has a 4+ cover save.
3. Controller of shooting attack rolls to-hit, to-wound, and scores 1 wound.
4. Rules of the game allocates the wound to the closest model in the bike unit. This model is in a Forest.
5. Controller of bike unit chooses the best save to use, and has the following options:
(a) - A 3+ Armour save.
(b) - A 4+ cover save from the Forest's datasheet (there is no such datasheet, but the players agreed this to be the case before the game). Normally 5+, but as the Bike unit has Stealth(Forest), the rules of the game state that the bike model adds +1 to this cover save.
(c) - A 3+ cover save from Jinking. Normally 4+, but as the Bike unit has Stealth(Forest) and is in a Forest, the rules of the game state that the bike model adds +1 to his cover save.


So if the model's in a Forest (by the rules you posted), then the model gets +1 to its cover save - regardless of how it gained that cover save. To work as it might be intended, it'd have to say:

"A unit with Stealth counts its cover save as being 1 point better than normal. This rule is often presented as Stealth(X). If this is the case, the unit only gains the benefit if it is making a save conferred by that specific terrain type."

Note, in this case, it'd be specifying a save from that terrain. It'd be option (b) in what I listed above. However, the rules as written say it gets to apply the +1 so long as it's just in the specified terrain type, regardless of where it got the cover save from.