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Dont have the rules to hand, but a quick question... If fielding a Space Marine Razorback with a Lascannon and TL Plasmagun turret. Can both these weapons fire at the same time, or is it a case of one at a time? What happens when moving 6"? etc?

They're different weapons. So you can fire only one of them, but if you move 6", only one will fire at full BS

So, is this right:

Stationary
Lascannon = Full BS
TL Plasmagun = Full BS
Can fire BOTH guns in the Shooting Phase, both at full BS.

Moving up to 6"
One gun = Full BS
Other gun = Snapshots
Can fire BOTH guns in the Shooting Phase, one at full BS the other with Snapshots.

Moving > 6"
One gun only = snapshots?
Can fire ONE gun in the Shooting Phase with Snapshots.

 Nostromo 69 wrote:

Moving > 6"
One gun only = snapshots?
Can fire ONE gun in the Shooting Phase with Snapshots.

A vehicle that moved at Cruising Speed can only make Snap Shots, as above.

Can fire ALL guns in the Shooting Phase and ALL with snapshots.

It follows the rules ofr normal non-fast non-skimmer vehicles as regards to firing weapons. It has 2 of them, so not moving means both fire at full BS, at 6" or less then 1 at full, the other snapshots, and finally over 6" you can fire both, but any firing is at snap shot

Quite a few re-rolls to consider:

Re-roll TO HIT for Devastator Doctrine
Armorium Cherub (re-roll TO HIT) for Devs only.
Penetration re-roll TO PEN for Imperial Fist Tank Hunter!

Unless this is different (dont think it is) you cant re roll a re roll unless im missing what you are saying here.

Only one re-roll TO HIT, but can you then use your Armorium Cherub to re-roll that (as its a special rule). And then can you re-roll your Pen (Imperial Fist Chapter Tactics - Tank Hunter on Devs) after a re-rolled HIT I take it?

Oh yea you can do that i see now i thorght you were combining all he abilitys to keep re rolling.

Is the only way to get that turret through Forgeworld?

Officialy yes. Unofficialy use the casing from the Heavy bolter, a plasma rifle and lascannon from the marine squad sprues - thats what i did.

So to clarify.

If I want to try and take out a Heavy in the First Turn....

I have 2 squads of Devs. Each 4 x Lascannons and a Sarge. Each with a Razorback that has a Lascannon/TL Plasmagun. Each with an Armorium Cherub.

So using Imperial Fist Chapter Tactics (Tank Hunter on Devs) then enacting Devastator Doctrine for the first turn, the rounds of fire are, for each squad:

TO HIT
4 Devs fire their Lascannons.
Any fails are re-rolled (Dev Doctrine).
A single further fail may be re-rolled (Armorium Cherub)

Dev Razorback then fires its lascannon - exactly as above (even with the 1 use cherub if needed, as its part of the Dev unit).

TO PEN
Roll to pen as normal
Re-roll any failed glances (or any naff pens) with Tank Hunter.

Is that all ok?








Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lord Corellia wrote:
Is the only way to get that turret through Forgeworld?

Not sure, but I just bought 6 AssCannon Turrets and 4 LasPlas Turrets from Forgeworld - they are very nice, but not cheap.

The Razorback is not part of the Devastator squad. So you can't use the Cherub on the Razorback, neither can you use CTs for the Razorback, as vehicles don't have CTs as a special rule.

OK, so I wouldnt use the Cherub, or CT reroll on the Razor. Though I thought, if it was part of the Dev Squad, it had the same rules. Never mind that though.

Is everything else ok?

The Razorback is a dedicated transport, but that doesn't make it part of the squad, otherwise it could never transport any models, given that it would have to board itself.
It also doesn't need to keep unit coherency to the squad.

Also keep in mind, that you don't automatically have the Combat Doctrines as IF, refer to the formations and Gladius Strikeforce requirements. And it's 1 use only.

Not sure on the wording of the Cherub right now, but I don't think it allows a re-roll of a re-roll.

I dont have access to the Combat Doctrines?

Can you explain that?

Imperial Fist (one use):
Tactical Doctrine
Devastator Doctrine
Assault Doctrine

Then as an Imperial Fist, I get the IF bonuses. Just as if I was Ultramarines, I would get to use the same Doctrines again. Or if I was Salamanders I'd get their flamer shenanigans, etc.

Im not sure what you mean by that?

You need to take a Gladius Strikeforce to get Combat Doctrines as IF. Only Ultramarines have the Doctrines automatically (it's their CT).

Looking at codex now - the IF's get bolter drill and seige masters (tank hunters on Devs) no mention of any acess to combat doctrines - the UM ones specificly say they get to use it once per game and the demi battle company also says that you can.

Edit also the armorium cherub dosent say you can re roll a re roll

 Hanskrampf wrote:
You need to take a Gladius Strikeforce to get Combat Doctrines as IF. Only Ultramarines have the Doctrines automatically (it's their CT).

Sorry, yes I did mention about having 10 Razorbacks in my list, so yes its a Gladius Strikeforce. I wouldnt take so many if I wasnt running one. Im just torn between runing IF (bolter heavy) or Ultras (possibly a Lascannon in each Tac Squad)

1750 List is:
Captain (Chapter Master), Chaplain.

2 x Assault Squads (2 x Flamers) 2 x LasPlas Razors
2 x Dev Squads (4 x Lascannons and a Cherub) 2 x LasPlas Razors

6 x Tac Squads (with either a HB or LC). 6 x AssCan Razor with SB.

3 x 9 man Scout Squads - 8 Snipers and a HB.

I know the force Im facing this week, which is a very strong one, with a Heavy and a couple of MCs, so the idea is to try and one shot his Heavy with the Devs, and Snipe his MC with my massed Scouts - and its mathhammering as if I will manage that as IF. Ultramarines is probably the wisest choice, but Tank Hunter is very, very nice and almost guarantees that Heavy dies turn 1. And with IF bolters re-roll 1s anyway, so its quite a close call between them, but the IF is shading it.

 Nostromo 69 wrote:
Ultramarines is probably the wisest choice, but Tank Hunter is very, very nice and almost guarantees that Heavy dies turn 1. And with IF bolters re-roll 1s anyway, so its quite a close call between them, but the IF is shading it.

Then it comes down to an age-old question: How much yellow do you REALLY want to paint?!

Back to the cherubs again.

Are you saying that I couldnt use a Dev Cherub on a Dev's transport, but only a Dev Squad trooper. Even if I havent re-rolled a miss?

I think in the interest of confusion and sportsmanship, that I will only use the Cherub on Lascannon troopers that havent made a CT reroll.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hehe yellow? Crimson Fists or Blood Fists more like - dont like yellow, or white, though I think both colours looks great.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think its IF, just to (almost) guarantee his heavy dies without me Sternpodding, etc.

 Nostromo 69 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hehe yellow? Crimson Fists or Blood Fists more like - dont like yellow, or white, though I think both colours looks great.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think its IF, just to (almost) guarantee his heavy dies without me Sternpodding, etc.

Good lad! I've loved Crimson Fists ever since I saw this pic:

 Nostromo 69 wrote:
Back to the cherubs again.

Are you saying that I couldnt use a Dev Cherub on a Dev's transport, but only a Dev Squad trooper. Even if I havent re-rolled a miss?

I think in the interest of confusion and sportsmanship, that I will only use the Cherub on Lascannon troopers that havent made a CT reroll

That is correct the cherub only works within the unit. Dts are never part of the unit that bought them.

If that is definitely the case, then yes. It says a model in the unit can reroll fails in the shooting phase. So, if that was a Dev's transport, which is part of the unit, but not really PART of the unit as you say, then that would allow me to reroll both the Lascannon and the twin linked Plasmaguns on the LasPlas Razorbacks, in the same shooting phase, which would have been nice.

 Nostromo 69 wrote:
If that is definitely the case, then yes. It says a model in the unit can reroll fails in the shooting phase. So, if that was a Dev's transport, which is part of the unit, but not really PART of the unit as you say, then that would allow me to reroll both the Lascannon and the twin linked Plasmaguns on the LasPlas Razorbacks, in the same shooting phase, which would have been nice.

It's not a matter of 'not really'... The transport simply is not a part of the same unit as the Devastators, in any way , shape or form.

 Nostromo 69 wrote:
If that is definitely the case, then yes. It says a model in the unit can reroll fails in the shooting phase. So, if that was a Dev's transport, which is part of the unit, but not really PART of the unit as you say, then that would allow me to reroll both the Lascannon and the twin linked Plasmaguns on the LasPlas Razorbacks, in the same shooting phase, which would have been nice.

Youre mixing things up. A dedicated transport isn't part of any unit at all. It's not an upgrade or another model, is an entire UNIT you pay for to ferry that specific unit (at least at the moment they get into the table, either deployed or reserves). The moment they are in the table, they can disgorge their cargo (the unit that bought it) and, on the next turn, let any other infantry unit embark inside it.

 Nostromo 69 wrote:
So to clarify.

If I want to try and take out a Heavy in the First Turn....

I have 2 squads of Devs. Each 4 x Lascannons and a Sarge. Each with a Razorback that has a Lascannon/TL Plasmagun. Each with an Armorium Cherub.

So using Imperial Fist Chapter Tactics (Tank Hunter on Devs) then enacting Devastator Doctrine for the first turn, the rounds of fire are, for each squad:

TO HIT
4 Devs fire their Lascannons.
Any fails are re-rolled (Dev Doctrine).
A single further fail may be re-rolled (Armorium Cherub)

Dev Razorback then fires its lascannon - exactly as above (even with the 1 use cherub if needed, as its part of the Dev unit).

TO PEN
Roll to pen as normal
Re-roll any failed glances (or any naff pens) with Tank Hunter.

Is that all ok?

A dedicated transport is not part of the unit it was purchased for. Maybe you're confusing it with the DT being included in the FOC choice ("1 troop slot") - but that's an entirely different story. (See BRB "dedicated transport")

In addition, the only vehicle that has the Chapter Tactics special rule are Dreadnoughts - Therefore no other vehicles are able to profit from ANY kind of chapter tactic - including IF. This ALSO applies to the Doctrines, those apply - when used - only to units with the Chapter Tactics special rule.

C:SM wrote:When each Combat Doctrine is enacted, all models in your army with the Chapter Tactics rule that are part of a Gladius Strike Force are affected.

C:SM wrote:If your army contains any Ultramarines units, you can choose to enact the Devastator Doctrine, Assault Doctrine and Tactical Doctrine

C:SM wrote:When the Doctrine is enacted, all models in your army with the Chapter Tactics rule that are part of a Battle Demi-company are affected.

And since this apparently was "easier" for GW to add rather than write consistent rules, here the quote that prevents even the "Ultramarines units" from including vehicles outside of dreadnoughts:

C:SM wrote:The rules will often refer to a model, character or unit by its Chapter; in all cases, this refers to a model, character or unit with the Chapter Tactics special rule that is drawn from the given Chapter. If a unit contains models drawn from two different Chapters, it counts as from neither Chapter, and thus benefits from neither Chapter Tactic.
For example, ‘an Ultramarines unit’ refers to ‘a unit with the Chapter Tactics special rule that is drawn from the Ultramarines Chapter.’

Last but not least - you can never re-roll an already re-rolled die. (See BRB "re-rolling")

Cheers Guys. I agree with all of that, other than Vector's bit about "you can never re-roll a re-rolled die". You mean never re-roll a re-rolled TO HIT, or a re-rolled TO WOUND or TO PEN, etc?

For example.
I run Blood Angels' Death Company with Astorath (uber Chaplain), and when the Death Company charge into combat, they can re-roll all failed To Hit dice. They can then re-roll all failed To Wound dice.

Just like Imperial Fist Devastators (Chapter Tactics = Tank Hunter on Devs). Tank Hunter allows you to re-roll your To Pen rolls. So if you are using a Gladius Strike Force and enacting Devastator (or even Tactical) Doctrine, you have probably just re-rolled some To Hits. You may then re-roll your To Pens on the dice that hit.

I take it examples like this are ok as they are just special cases to the normal rule, as they specifically mention they CAN re-roll under certain circumstances?

Yes, once you are rolling for th-twound, you arent "rerolling" a to-hit. it is an entirely new roll

BRB Re-roll:
"In some situations, the rules allow you to re-roll a dice. This is exactly what it sounds like – pick up the dice you wish to re-roll, and roll it again. The second roll counts, even if it means a worse result
than the first, and no single dice can be re-rolled more than once, regardless of the source of the re-roll"

You cannot re-roll single dice more than once.

This means that you CANNOT re-roll dice becaues of Dev doctrine and if still miss re-roll using Cherub.

Roll to Hit and Roll to Wound are not the same "dice".
So it is fine to re-roll to Hit with Dev doctrine, and then to Wound with Grav-Amp.