Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I do not have a rulebook handy, so I'm sorry if this is an easy rule.

I've been toying around with the idea of running Morgrok's bossboyz (a formation that involves taking 3 meks, a warboss, and a wierdboy), and putting the three Meks (with killsaws) on bikes and putting them in a single bike squad with a painboy for added FNP goodness. The thing is, I will certainly use the regular biker boys as meat shields, and if the entire biker squad is killed (leaving only the 3 meks and the painboy alive) do I still have a squad, or just four independent characters that are close together? Also, are the rules the same if they're in combat, as opposed to just being out in the open. Either way this goes could make a big difference, especially considering the painboy's FNP.

Thanks in advance!

They are a squad unless you move them apart. So long as you keep them together, the Painboy is still affecting a unit.

However, they leave the unit they joined at the beginning of the next phase if the rest of the unit is destroyed.

But do other ICs count as the rest of the unit for this? For Special Rules, only the rules currently possessed by the models would remain in play.

Funtionally you have a unit of 4 ics.

Technically you just divided by zero.

Ics join a unit and become part of that unit for all rules purposes.

We know 2 things with this situation:
1) when all other members of a unit that has an ic attached dies the ic reverts back to the ic's unit.
2) not all members of the bike unit has technically died as the other ics had also become part of the bikers unit.

So now we have a situation where the 4 ics may possibly be joined to a warbike unit that no longer exists, or they may simply be a unit 4 ics but we do not kniw which ic the other 3 have joined.

Either way it is still 1 unit and the whole thing benefits from the painboy'z fnp.

Most of the time the classification does not matter(whether or not they are still a warbike unit); it does matter, however, in a game of "the scouring" because until the warbiker unit is completely destroyed the opponent does not gain a vp(either via only one ic being left in the unit through casualties or the others leaving the unit).

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Most of the time the classification does not matter(whether or not they are still a warbike unit); it does matter, however, in a game of "the scouring" because until the warbiker unit is completely destroyed the opponent does not gain a vp(either via only one ic being left in the unit through casualties or the others leaving the unit).

I disagree with this. You determine VPs after the game, as such, when determining if the Warbiker unit was completely destroyed, there are no ICs in the unit.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Most of the time the classification does not matter(whether or not they are still a warbike unit); it does matter, however, in a game of "the scouring" because until the warbiker unit is completely destroyed the opponent does not gain a vp(either via only one ic being left in the unit through casualties or the others leaving the unit).

I disagree with this. You determine VPs after the game, as such, when determining if the Warbiker unit was completely destroyed, there are no ICs in the unit.

Not always... you have TOs that award VPs and you discard the TO (giving you space for another TO) at the end of your turn, so it does matter.

Wallur wrote:

Not always... you have TOs that award VPs and you discard the TO (giving you space for another TO) at the end of your turn, so it does matter.

And when this is a tournament forum and not a rules question forum, this would be a valid point.

Wallur wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Most of the time the classification does not matter(whether or not they are still a warbike unit); it does matter, however, in a game of "the scouring" because until the warbiker unit is completely destroyed the opponent does not gain a vp(either via only one ic being left in the unit through casualties or the others leaving the unit).

I disagree with this. You determine VPs after the game, as such, when determining if the Warbiker unit was completely destroyed, there are no ICs in the unit.

Not always... you have TOs that award VPs and you discard the TO (giving you space for another TO) at the end of your turn, so it does matter.

Sorry, I'm reading TO as Tournament Organizer and I don't think you can discard a Tournament Organizer though that would seem very amusing. What are you referring to?

I'm sorry, Charistoph and Zimko.
I was using "TO" as "Tactical Objectives"

When playing by Tactical Objectives, you achieve it at the end of your turn, you discard the Tactical Obj and earn the VP at that time, not at the end of the game. And some requiere you to destroy a unit in a specific phase... or a Heavy supp unit, a fast attack unit, etc.

Except the mission mentioned (The Scouring) is an Eternal War mission, not Maelstrom of War. As such you do not use Tactical Objectives.

Of course with Tactical Objectives, since an IC does not revert to being his own unit until the next phase, attaching an IC to a unit prevents "kill a unit" from working unless the IC(s) are killed as well.

Thanks for the quick reply, guys!

OK. So let me make sure I got this right. The three meks and painboy stay together as a unit. The squad and each IC counts as separate to determine victory points (so if everyone died, it would give my enemy a grand total of 5 kill points. 1 for the squad, 1 for the painboy, and 3 for the 3 meks). So for the remainder of the game after the regular warbiker mob was destroyed, they all are still one unit, moving, attacking, targeted for attacks as one, and still get FNP. Or do they only act like this for the rest of the turn once the warbiker mob is gone?

They can stay as one unit for as long as you wish.

If you move any of them out of coherency in the movement phase, those models are no longer part of the unit.

Go over the rules for independent characters again in the special rules section. It should explain everything you need to know

 Happyjew wrote:
Except the mission mentioned (The Scouring) is an Eternal War mission, not Maelstrom of War. As such you do not use Tactical Objectives.

Of course with Tactical Objectives, since an IC does not revert to being his own unit until the next phase, attaching an IC to a unit prevents "kill a unit" from working unless the IC(s) are killed as well.

Tac obs are during the turn, ics are no longer joined in the next phase(again though the rules are assumptive of a single ic in a unit); so unless the rest of the unit was destroyed in the assault phase, and even then only if you think the end of the turn bit isn't a phase, then you would still get the tac obj vps.

Yes the scouring vps is at the end of game; but not sure if it would still count if the 3 meks and painboy(or at least 2 of them) were still "attached" to the bikers. Ics specifically grant vps for destruction even if the unit they were attached to survives(the purge), and warlord ics are likewise(any slay the warlord) so yeah...

Thanks again for the replies, guys! I have been thinking more about a build with this formation, and am not sure about the wording of one of the special rules, and since it deals with the se formation, I figured I would just put it here.

With this formation, I am able to give outflanking and acute senses to d3 "frendly ork units." Now the thought of an outflanking gorkanaught has sprung to mind, and while that is a wonderful image, I'm not sure if a gorkanaught is technicality a "unit." Thanks for the help!