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So in 7th edition 40k, can the grey knights dreadknight stand up to a wraithknight in melee or ranged? If not how can grey knights combat an eldar force that uses wraithknights?

Depends. Wraithknight will probably win in ranged combat (S4 from the Psilencer can't wound it, the Incinerator can only do 1 hit, and the Psycannons doesn't have many shots to make it through all the defenses)

In melee, if the Wraithknight has the D weapon, it wins because it strikes first and can instantly remove the Dreadknight. If it doesn't, Dreadknight kills the Wraithknight in ~2 phases, if Force is active.

It's an uphill battle for the DK due to the higher initiative of the WK. Best tactic I can think of is keep the DK in terrain and hope the WK tries to assault it.

No, it pretty much can't. The Wraithknight can put wounds and/or kill it at range reasonably easy, and is fast enough that it will get to shoot at least once. The Dreadknight (and Grey Knights in general) lack guns capable of scaring Wraithknights (psycannons are the only gun meaningfully able to hurt the WK, and they frankly suck against them). If you do shunt in the WK's face, activate Force, and hope you survive the shooting, the WK still hits first, and now that it's no longer vulnerable to instant death, you might not kill it even if you do live to attack.

A Dreadknight can do it if the Eldar player rolls poorly and you roll decently well, but if anything doesn't go your way, or the Eldar player rolls a 6 at the wrong time, you're out of luck.

However, multiple Dreadknights fare much better. Since a lot of places limit you to one LOW, you can shunt 3 Dreadknights in the Wraithknight's face, and it's probably dead. Unless, of course, the Eldar player rolls a bunch of 6's, then you're screwed, but that's Str D for you.

As a whole, since you can throw Dreadknights at the Eldar to kill the Wraithknight, and a lot of the army is relatively vulnerable to small arms fire (Jetbikes), you can get in a good alpha strike. Shunt and deepstrike in their face, shoot everything into vulnerable troops. Kill the Wraithknight in assault next turn. And just hope that they don't have flamer Wraithguard, because even with the ITC Str D nerf, 5 of those basically auto-kills any Grey Knight unit they shoot at, except maybe Draigo with Paladins. And GKs suck at shooting them to death, so you need to charge them, which just means more flamer hits.

Couldn't a Terminator unit packing multiple Hammers get the job done? Let's also throw in a Librarian because Grey Knight ones are great.

If you get off Sanctuary your 4++ Invul will tank most of the WK's attacks and Force Hammers will cleave through the Wraith Knight, wounding on 4's (2's with hammerhand) doing D3 wounds each. However this only works vs a Melee WK, you'd never catch a ranged one unless he wanted you to.

The reason i picked Terminators over Paladins was pure efficiency vs Str D, rolling a 6 to instant kill a Terminator is less serious then instant killing a Paladin when they have similar damage outputs.

As a hard-core GK player, I can absolutely tell you NOT to assault a Wraithknight with your DK. Even if you have force activated, if he is the close-combat variant you will very likely die before striking. You used to be able to hide in terrain and trick them into assaulting you, lowering them to I1; now that they're Gargantuan, they get Move through Cover.

A unit of, say, Terminators with Halberds, so long as they have Hammerhand up, will on the other hand destroy a WK. Force is nice if you can get it, but a full unit of Termies on the charge should solve your WK problem in one round of combat.

30 Attacks that hit on 4s and wound on 5s (16.5% chance to cause a wound) comes out to 4.95 wounds. Let's assume it doesn't have the shield, but it still gets Feel No Pain (because we don't have Force up at the moment) and that's only 3.267 unsaved wounds.

He's got 3 left.

Always cast Force, kids.

Thanks all for the replies and tips. How about against a wraithlord....does a dreadknight stand a chance in melee or ranged? If not, how can grey knights combat against eldar wraithlords?

Grey Knights will wreck Wraithlords if they get Force up. All they need is to get 1 attack in. Halberds + Hammerhand gives you 5+ to wound, or just hit it with Hammers for 4+ (2+ with Hammerhand). They don't get any saves.

Nvmd, didn't see wraith -lord-

The only wraithlord variant that could beat a DK is a dual BL or star cannon build in shooting, and that is only if the DK doesn't just want to deal with it. In melee the DK will obliterate the lord with or with out force.

The post you're quoting is talking about Wraithlords.

If you take the multiple DK approach, it's a good idea to equip the DKs with hammers. That way, if you need a second round of combat, you'll strike first due to Concussion.

 Homeskillet wrote:
As a hard-core GK player, I can absolutely tell you NOT to assault a Wraithknight with your DK. Even if you have force activated, if he is the close-combat variant you will very likely die before striking. You used to be able to hide in terrain and trick them into assaulting you, lowering them to I1; now that they're Gargantuan, they get Move through Cover.

A unit of, say, Terminators with Halberds, so long as they have Hammerhand up, will on the other hand destroy a WK. Force is nice if you can get it, but a full unit of Termies on the charge should solve your WK problem in one round of combat.

MTC doesn't allow you to strike at I so unless the WK has assault grenades, he would be fighting at I1 if he charges a unit in cover

Your standard Wk doesn't have a D weapon in CC - it's just high str ap2 attacks and you have an invo save - plus he has to hit you on 4's - it wont kill you. You WILL kill him with force up with relative ease. So will halbred terminators with force up - 0 saves each wound dealing D3 wounds.

Question is - why would anyone pay more points than 275 for their WK? it doesn't need D weapon CC attacks - it has 2 other forms of D why take 3? Thats just follish. Unless they are list tailoring.

Mathhammer (note I'm using 2 as the avg for D3)

Dreadknight has greatsword, and charges. Sanctuary and Force up
CC version:
DK HOW - 0.037 wounds to WK after FNP
WK swings - 2 hits, 1 D hit saved. DK takes 2 wounds avg
DK swings - 4 hits, 3.33 wounds, 2.22 unsaved becomes 4.44 avg to WK
WK stomps - 2 hits, 1 wound, 0.17 unsaved to DK
Second round of combat, WK kills DK at I5

D-cannon version:
DK HOW - 0.037 wounds to WK after FNP
WK swings - 2 hits, 1.67 wounds, 0.83 unsaved wounds to DK
DK swings - 4 hits, 3.33 unsaved wounds becomes 6.66 avg to WK
WK stomps (if it lived) - 2 hits, 1 wound, 0.17 unsaved to DK
WK dies at I4 in first round of combat

If Wraithknight gets the charge
D-cannon version:
WK HOW - 0.14 unsaved wounds to DK
WK swings - 2.5 hits, 2.08 wounds, 1.04 unsaved wounds to DK
DK swings - 3.33 hits, 2.78 unsaved wounds becomes 5.56 avg to WK
WK stomps (if it lived) - 2 hits, 1 wound, 0.17 unsaved to DK
Second round of combat, WK dies at I4

So, the DK beats out the non-CC (aka most common variant) of the WK in close combat, barring one thing: with an average of 2 stomps, at I1 the WK has a 33% chance to remove the DK with a "6". The CC version has a 33% chance at I5 as well (assuming 2 hits), giving it a 66% chance of removing the DK in the first round, no saves allowed. Generally speaking then, 2+ dreadknights will beat out a single non-CC wraithknight with no problems, and if one gets the charge he should be ok as well.
This also brings up the interesting idea of equipping the hammer vs the sword, against the D-cannon version the hammer only does 5.56 wounds avg on the charge and 4.44 if he is charged, but you knock the WK down to I1 (3.70 and 2.96 respectively to the CC version). Against the CC version it could be just what you need to survive and kill it in round 2, assuming you survived the D-weapons round 1.

Rihgu wrote:
30 Attacks that hit on 4s and wound on 5s (16.5% chance to cause a wound) comes out to 4.95 wounds. Let's assume it doesn't have the shield, but it still gets Feel No Pain (because we don't have Force up at the moment) and that's only 3.267 unsaved wounds.

He's got 3 left.

Always cast Force, kids.

Isnt "Force" considered ID still? and therefore Gargantuan or not, FNP doesnt kick in? I know Gargants arent subjected to ID but rather take D3 wounds from it, but the FNP rule isnt different to Gargants, so they cannot take the FNP save against wounds with the Force effect, no?

 greyknight12 wrote:
Mathhammer (note I'm using 2 as the avg for D3)

Dreadknight has greatsword, and charges. Sanctuary and Force up
CC version:
DK HOW - 0.037 wounds to WK after FNP
WK swings - 2 hits, 1 D hit saved. DK takes 2 wounds avg
DK swings - 4 hits, 3.33 wounds, 2.22 unsaved becomes 4.44 avg to WK
WK stomps - 2 hits, 1 wound, 0.17 unsaved to DK
Second round of combat, WK kills DK at I5

D-cannon version:
DK HOW - 0.037 wounds to WK after FNP
WK swings - 2 hits, 1.67 wounds, 0.83 unsaved wounds to DK
DK swings - 4 hits, 3.33 unsaved wounds becomes 6.66 avg to WK
WK stomps (if it lived) - 2 hits, 1 wound, 0.17 unsaved to DK
WK dies at I4 in first round of combat

If Wraithknight gets the charge
D-cannon version:
WK HOW - 0.14 unsaved wounds to DK
WK swings - 2.5 hits, 2.08 wounds, 1.04 unsaved wounds to DK
DK swings - 3.33 hits, 2.78 unsaved wounds becomes 5.56 avg to WK
WK stomps (if it lived) - 2 hits, 1 wound, 0.17 unsaved to DK
Second round of combat, WK dies at I4

So, the DK beats out the non-CC (aka most common variant) of the WK in close combat, barring one thing: with an average of 2 stomps, at I1 the WK has a 33% chance to remove the DK with a "6". The CC version has a 33% chance at I5 as well (assuming 2 hits), giving it a 66% chance of removing the DK in the first round, no saves allowed. Generally speaking then, 2+ dreadknights will beat out a single non-CC wraithknight with no problems, and if one gets the charge he should be ok as well.
This also brings up the interesting idea of equipping the hammer vs the sword, against the D-cannon version the hammer only does 5.56 wounds avg on the charge and 4.44 if he is charged, but you knock the WK down to I1 (3.70 and 2.96 respectively to the CC version). Against the CC version it could be just what you need to survive and kill it in round 2, assuming you survived the D-weapons round 1.

You aren't factoring the reroll for the sword.
NDK charges with 5 attacks hitting on 3's and wounding 2's - each gets a reroll with the sword.
You will average just under 4 hits - and average just under 4 wounds. Each would deals d3 wounds. Only need to wound 3 times to average a kill and yes. You do average 3 wounds on a WK with a NDK.
Essentially if an undamaged NDK gets into combat with a WK - it's gonna kill it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 GoliothOnline wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
30 Attacks that hit on 4s and wound on 5s (16.5% chance to cause a wound) comes out to 4.95 wounds. Let's assume it doesn't have the shield, but it still gets Feel No Pain (because we don't have Force up at the moment) and that's only 3.267 unsaved wounds.

He's got 3 left.

Always cast Force, kids.

Isnt "Force" considered ID still? and therefore Gargantuan or not, FNP doesnt kick in? I know Gargants arent subjected to ID but rather take D3 wounds from it, but the FNP rule isnt different to Gargants, so they cannot take the FNP save against wounds with the Force effect, no?

Force denies FNP - GC don't have any special rules to prevent this. Trust me - you get a chance to charge a WK with a NDK - you are coming out on top most of the time.

Thanks for working the math out on this guys!

Couldn't you use Sanctuary to increase you inv save to 4++? would that help a little on the numbers?

 GoliothOnline wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
30 Attacks that hit on 4s and wound on 5s (16.5% chance to cause a wound) comes out to 4.95 wounds. Let's assume it doesn't have the shield, but it still gets Feel No Pain (because we don't have Force up at the moment) and that's only 3.267 unsaved wounds.

He's got 3 left.

Always cast Force, kids.

Isnt "Force" considered ID still? and therefore Gargantuan or not, FNP doesnt kick in? I know Gargants arent subjected to ID but rather take D3 wounds from it, but the FNP rule isnt different to Gargants, so they cannot take the FNP save against wounds with the Force effect, no?

Correct. That calculation was done without Force, as the post I was responding to had said that Terminators without Force activated would still make mincemeat out of Wraith Knights.

Force Chews through wraithknights, its just a matter of the fact that wraithknights are a low dice high impact model. You get force up and even strikes will put a serious hurting on with hammer hand.

 Xenomancers wrote:

You aren't factoring the reroll for the sword.
NDK charges with 5 attacks hitting on 3's and wounding 2's - each gets a reroll with the sword.
You will average just under 4 hits - and average just under 4 wounds. Each would deals d3 wounds. Only need to wound 3 times to average a kill and yes. You do average 3 wounds on a WK with a NDK.
Essentially if an undamaged NDK gets into combat with a WK - it's gonna kill it.

The sword is master-crafted, not the re-roll everything greatsword from the 5th ed codex. And I factored that in:
5 attacks (hits on 3s) = 3.33 hits, plus 1 re-roll (0.67) = 4 hits.
4 hits (wounds on 2s) = 3.33 wounds.
Then factor in the shield if the WK has that (5++), and multiply the result by 2 (average of a D3).

One thing you should include for the ranged WK is the fact that he will be able to shoot you at least one time if he charges you or twice if you charge him, once at normal ballistic skill and then once for overwatch. Also you have to activate force for it to work without it you lose horribly.

Ellethorn wrote:
One thing you should include for the ranged WK is the fact that he will be able to shoot you at least one time if he charges you or twice if you charge him, once at normal ballistic skill and then once for overwatch. Also you have to activate force for it to work without it you lose horribly.

GMC's don't get to fire overwatch, so regardless of who charges the WK will only get the one turn shooting.

Ellethorn wrote:
One thing you should include for the ranged WK is the fact that he will be able to shoot you at least one time if he charges you or twice if you charge him, once at normal ballistic skill and then once for overwatch. Also you have to activate force for it to work without it you lose horribly.

Gettting shot by the WK (2 D-cannons):
2 shots, 1.33 hits, 1.33 avg unsaved wounds with sanctuary, 1.77 without.
Scatter Laser does 0.22 unsaved wounds

Obviously, once again if the WK gets a 6 your DK is dead. Also, a smart eldar player isn't going to just let you charge with a dreadknight; he'll bubble wrap or just shoot it with many, many other things, because DKs and interceptors are really the only things that can catch a WK and everything in his army can hurt the DK. However, that discussion is best reserved for an "Eldar are OP" thread. It's also worth noting that in roughly 4.5 turns (so 4 or 5 in real game turns) the WK will statistically roll one 6. All that said, charging a WK with dreadknights or terminators is the best (really the only) way to kill them in the Grey Knight codex. The only ranged option is vortex of doom or a really lucky psychic shriek.

I'd say the dreadknight as you almost always see at least 4 of them in each grey knight army as its considered the "only viable build" you see

 greyknight12 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

You aren't factoring the reroll for the sword.
NDK charges with 5 attacks hitting on 3's and wounding 2's - each gets a reroll with the sword.
You will average just under 4 hits - and average just under 4 wounds. Each would deals d3 wounds. Only need to wound 3 times to average a kill and yes. You do average 3 wounds on a WK with a NDK.
Essentially if an undamaged NDK gets into combat with a WK - it's gonna kill it.

The sword is master-crafted, not the re-roll everything greatsword from the 5th ed codex. And I factored that in:
5 attacks (hits on 3s) = 3.33 hits, plus 1 re-roll (0.67) = 4 hits.
4 hits (wounds on 2s) = 3.33 wounds.
Then factor in the shield if the WK has that (5++), and multiply the result by 2 (average of a D3).

It also reroll 1 failed to wound does it not?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

You aren't factoring the reroll for the sword.
NDK charges with 5 attacks hitting on 3's and wounding 2's - each gets a reroll with the sword.
You will average just under 4 hits - and average just under 4 wounds. Each would deals d3 wounds. Only need to wound 3 times to average a kill and yes. You do average 3 wounds on a WK with a NDK.
Essentially if an undamaged NDK gets into combat with a WK - it's gonna kill it.

The sword is master-crafted, not the re-roll everything greatsword from the 5th ed codex. And I factored that in:
5 attacks (hits on 3s) = 3.33 hits, plus 1 re-roll (0.67) = 4 hits.
4 hits (wounds on 2s) = 3.33 wounds.
Then factor in the shield if the WK has that (5++), and multiply the result by 2 (average of a D3).

It also reroll 1 failed to wound does it not?

No. It's just master-crafted. Read your codex, and the rules for master-crafted. You'll probably also find that Draigo doesn't have Sanctuary, among many other things

 greyknight12 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

You aren't factoring the reroll for the sword.
NDK charges with 5 attacks hitting on 3's and wounding 2's - each gets a reroll with the sword.
You will average just under 4 hits - and average just under 4 wounds. Each would deals d3 wounds. Only need to wound 3 times to average a kill and yes. You do average 3 wounds on a WK with a NDK.
Essentially if an undamaged NDK gets into combat with a WK - it's gonna kill it.

The sword is master-crafted, not the re-roll everything greatsword from the 5th ed codex. And I factored that in:
5 attacks (hits on 3s) = 3.33 hits, plus 1 re-roll (0.67) = 4 hits.
4 hits (wounds on 2s) = 3.33 wounds.
Then factor in the shield if the WK has that (5++), and multiply the result by 2 (average of a D3).

It also reroll 1 failed to wound does it not?

No. It's just master-crafted. Read your codex, and the rules for master-crafted. You'll probably also find that Draigo doesn't have Sanctuary, among many other things

Lies, Draigo is a Gargantuan creature.