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This came up in a different thread. And it appears that grenades are indeed in the ranged weapons section of the csm codex.

I have always considered them wargear that only has a certain effect. And I've always considered exchanging the bolter on a bike dubious at best.
Does this mean I could actually replace a grenade for a powerfist for example?

That would be news to me.

It depends on the weapon swap rules, really.

Ranged Weapons cannot be exchanged for a Power Fist in CSM. Only, close combat weapons, power weapons and bolt pistols, depending on the armour.

Relics are a different story.

No they cannot.

grenades do not exist in the weapons section of the rulebook iirc.

so you cannot opt to replace them when asked to replace a weapon.

Charistoph wrote:
It depends on the weapon swap rules, really.

Ranged Weapons cannot be exchanged for a Power Fist in CSM. Only, close combat weapons, power weapons and bolt pistols, depending on the armour.

Relics are a different story.

True,that was a bad example. I should have chosen a plasma pistol or so But yea.

Do they really not exist in the weapons section in the rulebook? The weapon section in the rulebook lists assault weapons. Grenades are all assault weapons when shot. It also says grenades can be used to make shooting attacks in the grenade section in the back. And specifically as a melee weapon
And they do exist in my codex ranged weapon section by name, and codex trumps rule book, even if they weren't in the brb.

Personally I never considered this a thing, but what about you people out there that allow trading in the weapons from bikes?
Grenades are assault weapons as far as the rules go, due to having the assault special rule and a range. They can be fired as a ranged weapon. I can totally see why people would do it, and tbh I'm somewhat tempted to myself.

At the end of the Rulebook (7th ed), After Special Rules and before Terrain Datasheets you have:

-RANGED WEAPONS OF THE 41st MILLENNIUM
-MELEE WEAPONS OF THE 41st MILLENNIUM
-GRENADES OF THE 41st MILLENNIUM

So I guess Grenades are different from Ranged Weapons... and melee Weapons...

And in the csm codex they are under ranged weapons. And I would imagine that would apply to a few more codices.

I'm not trying to exploit anything here, I''m just genuinly curious why people are dismissing grenades as weapon so fast.
Are you considering the ranged section of a codex not to part of "codex trumps rulebook"?
And the weapons section (page 40) listing assault weapons as weapons and grenades being assault weapons not count for anything?

Well if you really wanted to say grenades were an item you could swap, then it would just be more eggs in the basket.

I think grenades are considered "wargear" and not weapons. Grenades are in the BrB under their own section as well.

Well, it certainly looks like the vast majority of people consider the grenades wargear. Guess I'll stick with the way I've always been doing it. No bike weapon swapping or grenades.

I was quite surprised when somebody suggested you could do that.

Grenades can't be put into melee or ranged because some grenades can be used during the shooting phase only and some grenades can be used during the assault phase only or some grenades have completely different effects when used in different phases. They are their own thing seperate from melee and ranged. I play Orks whom all automatically get Stikk Bombs on top of their other weapons so no matter how much weapon swapping happens the ork grenades are still there.

When you say that grnades ares listed in the ranged weapon section of the CSM codex I am a little surprised. As other have mentioned the BRB has them in a 3rd category, and almost every other codex lists them under special issue war gear. Can a CSM player swap out grenades fas ranged weapons? I would say yes, but don't expect that ability to remain when they update the CSM codex.

The csm codex has frag and krak grenades listed in the ranged weapon section on the fold out. Not in the wargear selection table. They aren't listed there at all. Only melta bombs and blight grenades, which are, as you say, in the special issue wargear section.

It also doesn't list them in the ranged weapon section where they have the rules for things like the baleflamer. Here they are part of the special issue wargear section.

But so are bikes. I was very surprised when somebody said you could do that with grenades, but I was willing to dig a a bit deeper as I know people change weapons on bikes too.
Whereas I consider them wargear and part of that wargear is the bolter. I consider it one whole. So you don't get to change the weapon on the bike.
This seemed more acceptable to me than the bike bolter swap in comparison.

Grenades are weapons. They are listed in both ranged and melee weapon appendices where relevant, among other clues to them being weapons.

They are not, however either ranged or melee weapons individually, so require the relevant weapon swap wording to state something like, "A model can exchange one weapon" rather than "ranged weapon" or "melee weapon".

I'm only aware of one time this was possible, but that codex has since been updated.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Grenades are weapons. They are listed in both ranged and melee weapon appendices where relevant, among other clues to them being weapons.

Many Grenades are weapons, but not all. However, the main ones that Chaos Space Marines are Weapons of one type or another.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
They are not, however either ranged or melee weapons individually, so require the relevant weapon swap wording to state something like, "A model can exchange one weapon" rather than "ranged weapon" or "melee weapon".

They are not in the Armoury under Ranged Weapons or Melee Weapons, true. Oddly enough, they do show up under Ranged Weapons or Melee Weapons under the weapon profiles, as appropriate.

And that is what makes Grenades so confusing. Many can be used as Weapons, and show up in the weapon profiles, but still shows up as Special Issue Wargear in the Armoury.

Why are they listed in Special Issue and not the Weapons? Well, as someone pointed out they almost all do more than just be Wargear that you can use to Attack with.

But if they can be swapped for Relics... Technically yes, they ARE weapons after all (well, at least, the Frags and Kraks), however, not everyone agrees with this, and consider only weapons listed in the Ranged and Melee Weapons sections of the Armoury to qualify. Though, I should state, there is nothing that states that only Weapons listed in these two sections of the Armoury are the only qualified Weapons available for exchange.

Charistoph wrote:
Many Grenades are weapons, but not all. However, the main ones that Chaos Space Marines are Weapons of one type or another.

Yeah, useful qualifier - many, possibly even most, are weapons, but not all.

They are not in the Armoury under Ranged Weapons or Melee Weapons, true. Oddly enough, they do show up under Ranged Weapons or Melee Weapons under the weapon profiles, as appropriate.

And that is what makes Grenades so confusing. Many can be used as Weapons, and show up in the weapon profiles, but still shows up as Special Issue Wargear in the Armoury.

Why are they listed in Special Issue and not the Weapons? Well, as someone pointed out they almost all do more than just be Wargear that you can use to Attack with.

But if they can be swapped for Relics... Technically yes, they ARE weapons after all (well, at least, the Frags and Kraks), however, not everyone agrees with this, and consider only weapons listed in the Ranged and Melee Weapons sections of the Armoury to qualify. Though, I should state, there is nothing that states that only Weapons listed in these two sections of the Armoury are the only qualified Weapons available for exchange.

I've never really considered the list in which an item of wargear appears as being definitive of what it is. A Dark Eldar Phantasm Grenade Launcher, for example, appears under the Arcane Wargear list alonside grenades, so I don't think such list headings are particularly definitive.

I certainly think grenades are not intended to be exchangeable and wouldn't bother trying it on myself, but don't think I'd fault an opponent if they'd followed the appropriate wording.

That sounds like a plan. I'll stick to not using them myself , but on the rare occasion that somebody wants to do it I guess I won't give them flak for doing so and just roll with it.

Please just roll with it when you play against an Ork player. As I mentioned earlier, all Ork units automatically have at least Stikk Bombs which are Assault Grenades used as a ranged weapon but also has an effect in the assault phase too. Some automatically come with Tankbusta Bombs as well which will be popular as they are Melta Bombs in the grenade section used in melee to reduce vehicles and buildings into slag and ash.

Why specifically orks? How is that different from marines which also all come with frag and krak pretty much?

No idea about the other factions. If there is many factions that all come with grenades I'm not sure why anyone would consider giving flak to anyone for using them. They all have their rules on precisely when and how they are used during the phases no matter how we decide to classify them.

However I am assuming your statement of not using them meant you weren't going to use grenades and that your 'generous' decision to no give flak to others using them meant using grenades. I could've misinterpreted your statement when you really meant not using the debatable option of switching them out (I don't switch em out btw).

I was referring to switching them our for relics and the like.

As in I'll be using grenades nromally, but I won't consider them as an option to switch out for other ranged weapons or relics or anything. But if my opponent wants to switch out a frag grenade or stickk bomb for for that shiny relic?...then so be it.

I didn't mean to infer that anybody shouldn't be throwing grenades or so.

No, you have to stop with the grenades now. No more throwing them!

That's a bad Ork!

lol