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pg 154 listed directly after Terminator Armor in the armory:

"Vengeful Strike: A model with the Deathwing special rule that arrives by Deep Strike treats all of its ranged weapons as having the Twin-linked special rule until the end of turn."

The issues:

1) Terminator armor does not specifically grant this rule. While it is listed directly after the Terminator armor entry, the entry itself makes no mention of this rule.
2) No unit entry mentions this rule.

The questions:

1) Do you have to be in terminator armor to benefit from this special rule? (For those who don't know, all Dark Angels independent characters have the Deathwing special rule except regular Chaplains and Techmarines)
2) If not, does this mean an IC deploying via Drop Pod, jump pack or by utilizing Gate of Infinity gain use of this rule?

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I'm leaning toward "Yes" for drop pod and jump pack deployment, no on Gate of Infinity as I'd define "arriving" for the purpose of the Vengeful Strike rule meaning first entering the game state. Curious how you guys would play it.

That rule is listed under the terminator armor, so yes, only terminator models can twin link on deep strike.
Since it is under terminator armor and you could as well not read that section if you don't wear a terminator armor then it clearly applies only to models with it.

Spoletta wrote:
That rule is listed under the terminator armor, so yes, only terminator models can twin link on deep strike.
Since it is under terminator armor and you could as well not read that section if you don't wear a terminator armor then it clearly applies only to models with it.

This is probably RAI

RAW has no restriction on armour. It gives a permission based on a model having the deathwing special rule. So any model with the deathwing special rule can use it.

As for gate of infinity. It specifically states the models are arriving via deep strike. RAW i see no reason why a deathwing unit cannot 'port around the table with twin linked everthing every turn

it says the immediately arrive on the table using the rules for deep strike.

it does not mention anything about reserves.

 jokerkd wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
That rule is listed under the terminator armor, so yes, only terminator models can twin link on deep strike.
Since it is under terminator armor and you could as well not read that section if you don't wear a terminator armor then it clearly applies only to models with it.

This is probably RAI

RAW has no restriction on armour. It gives a permission based on a model having the deathwing special rule. So any model with the deathwing special rule can use it.

As for gate of infinity. It specifically states the models are arriving via deep strike. RAW i see no reason why a deathwing unit cannot 'port around the table with twin linked everthing every turn

Aside from Deathwing IC's not in Terminator Armor I don't even see anything RAI wrong with it whether they teleport via machine or psykers they're still teleporting- using a Homer may be a different story. Or might not. Regardless this would entail a group of shooty deathwing terminators (for a full unit as opposed to some IC's/Librarian(s) running around with TL pistols) I suppose in theory you could have 5 super cheap libbies in a conclave Gating around with TL Plasma but really, that sounds more entertaining than valuable.


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blaktoof wrote:
it says the immediately arrive on the table using the rules for deep strike.

it does not mention anything about reserves.

Neither does the quoted Vengeful Strike rule.

Spoletta wrote:
That rule is listed under the terminator armor, so yes, only terminator models can twin link on deep strike.
Since it is under terminator armor and you could as well not read that section if you don't wear a terminator armor then it clearly applies only to models with it.

There's nothing clear about it. It never says anything about the rule in the rule for terminator armor, unlike say the weapon profile for Ravenwing Grenade Launchers that lists relevant special rules to their unique grenades right afterward. If terminator armor specifically is what grants it, there's nothing to indicate this is the case in the wording of any of the rules.

It's just simply where it's listed in the book, which admittedly is a really odd place. Terminators are what people immediately think of when they think "Deep Strike" and "Dark Angels", as people often forget they can still drop pod or use jump packs.

Personally, I'd let someone use the rule for any of their IC's enterting by deep strike reserve. They're probably not going to miss with a combi-weapon. I think I can live with that. It's not like it really buffs any of the shooty relics Dark Angels get as both are Master-Crafted to begin with.

My Melta bombs says roll 2d6 armor pen at half range, so I'm going to roll 2d6 pen for my bolter while doubletapping at 6 inches!

/DropsTheMic

effreem wrote:
My Melta bombs says roll 2d6 armor pen at half range, so I'm going to roll 2d6 pen for my bolter while doubletapping at 6 inches!

/DropsTheMic

Melta bombs don't say that.

RAW: The rule applies to modes with Deathwing that arrive by Deep Strike.

It never mentions Terminator armor or Reserves.

effreem wrote:
My Melta bombs says roll 2d6 armor pen at half range, so I'm going to roll 2d6 pen for my bolter while doubletapping at 6 inches!

/DropsTheMic

Did you drop it on purpose, or did the brainfart you were obviously suffering from have something to do with it?

some of this codex is written so poorly

axisofentropy wrote:
some of this codex is written so poorly

Said many people, of all GW books, in the last 20+ years ....

I'm sorry, because vengeful strike is bold its not a property of the terminator armor? Is that really the argument here? Its a special rule, so it gets a bold name, but its a special rule provided by the terminator armor, that's why its under the terminator armor heading in the armory. If it was meant to be a part of the deathwing rule it would have been part of the deathwing rule. What about Secret Agenda. Thats also a special rule thats listed under tactical objective 16, or is it part of every tactical objective?

Yes, secret agenda applies everytime you roll for objectives.

How can you hide the dice only after you have rolled 16?

Thanks for finding another example where the special rule always applies, regardless of where it is found

Its under the armour section right below terminator. Idk why its so hard.

sangheili wrote:
Idk why its so hard.

Because there are different levels to debate this at-

How you would play it-

Strict RAW

Some hybrid that interacts wtih Mathhammer theorycrafting and fluff considerations

How Person A thinks it would work and isn't open minded enough to see more than one answer....

Probably even more ways.

Yeah but it isnt a physics problem idk why a lot of people treat the rules as a quantum physics problem. The ending of gravity is kindergarden compared to how some people treat the rules.

So people should take this less seriously and cave in to your opinion when you know you're right?

It is difficult because of one sad truth:
Game Workshop treats the Editor position as 'ceremonial at best.'

This means there is no coherent 'format' when it comes to these Rulebooks, maybe why it was so easy to 'hack and paste' parts of Sixth Edition into locations they did not belong and call it a day. I always found it annoying that the detailed description of a Special Rule is found on the first Datasheet that encounters said Rule. Because of this previous bit of terrible 'formatting,' this would be a non-issue if they always had a Special Rule section for each Codex where they kept these things, we can not rule out the possibility that the detailed description of the Special Rule being located in the Armoury section is simply because that is where they believed the Special Rule will be first/most encountered. Reference section being ignored for now, because the lack of editorial oversight has led to much errata simply to fix the reference section saying the wrong things.

In the past all we required was that the Special Rule be listed on the datasheet, or granted elsewhere, so why has that suddenly changed to require the location of the Rule's description to be taken into account?

Breton wrote:
So people should take this less seriously and cave in to your opinion when you know you're right?

No not less seriously. Just not overthink the rules.
Vengeful strike is on pg 154 on the codex, on the armour section, its below the terminator armour. Sure it says models with deathwing rule blah blah blah. But by looking at the codex you need terminator armour to have the rule. Simple not a physics problem.

sangheili wrote:

Breton wrote:
So people should take this less seriously and cave in to your opinion when you know you're right?

No not less seriously. Just not overthink the rules.
Vengeful strike is on pg 154 on the codex, on the armour section, its below the terminator armour. Sure it says models with deathwing rule blah blah blah. But by looking at the codex you need terminator armour to have the rule. Simple not a physics problem.

And someone else pointed out GW's penchant for putting rules where they think they'll be seen first/most often etc. rather than everywhere, or even in one central location. There's probably a blurb in there about rolling an armor save on a 2+. does that mean you need Terminator armor to take an armor save?

Breton wrote:

sangheili wrote:

Breton wrote:
So people should take this less seriously and cave in to your opinion when you know you're right?

No not less seriously. Just not overthink the rules.
Vengeful strike is on pg 154 on the codex, on the armour section, its below the terminator armour. Sure it says models with deathwing rule blah blah blah. But by looking at the codex you need terminator armour to have the rule. Simple not a physics problem.

And someone else pointed out GW's penchant for putting rules where they think they'll be seen first/most often etc. rather than everywhere, or even in one central location. There's probably a blurb in there about rolling an armor save on a 2+. does that mean you need Terminator armor to take an armor save?

See once again making somthing simple complicated. Look on pg 8 of the rule book it tells you what you need for that.
Or maybe GW put it there cuz they ment for terminator armoured guys to have it.
Now if it were on pg 148 under the deathwing rule it'll be a different story.

I have not seen the new codex so I will ask for more information:
Are there any datasheets where Vengeful Strike is listed as a Special Rule on the sheet itself?

Then why did they put it in Terminator armor instead of Page 8?

If you think it's so easy to prove and not complicated, why haven't you proved your case already instead of resorting to logical fallacy?

Breton wrote:
Then why did they put it in Terminator armor instead of Page 8?

If you think it's so easy to prove and not complicated, why haven't you proved your case already instead of resorting to logical fallacy?

Cuz thats a special rule DA terminators get. Otherwise it wouldnhave been listed for all marines.


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I ment to say for all marine terminators.


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Also how is my logic not true?


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JinxDragon wrote:
I have not seen the new codex so I will ask for more information:
Are there any datasheets where Vengeful Strike is listed as a Special Rule on the sheet itself?

No vengeful strike is lister on the armour section, below terminator armor.
The argument is that it says models with the deathwing rule that deep strike get their weapons twin linked the turn they do so.

Some argue thats only for terminators others that its for all models with DW.

I say only terminators because its listed under the terminator armour and not on the page that tells you what DW does.

a 2+ armor save is a special rule DA terminators get, but not other marines like say.. Techmarines? Models in artificier armor? Armor saves in general was my counter point- that just because the ability to armor save was in the terminator armor description doesn't mean only terminators get an armor save.

If it were as simple as you say, you would have been able to point to the rule that confirms your opinion, rather than a logical fallacy of argument by emotive language, characterizing those who disagree as "making things complicated" laying the "fault" for the ambiguity and resultant question with those who disagree.

What's simple is this: the rule states who qualifies. The rule is located within the TDA description. the rule does NOT state TDA is required, but instead the Deathwing special rule.

You know what your right idk why i ever thought different.

sangheili wrote:
You know what your right idk why i ever thought different.

Because there's a strong argument to be made the other way as well, using the rules, and logic, not blaming the people who disagree for not capitulating because you said so, despite their at least equally strong point.

Also there arent any rules for TDA on the codex

I should do these breaks more often, when boredom eventually drifts me back to this site I find Game Workshop doing some very mind-boggling things.

This Rule used to be a Special Rule, found under the Special Rule section of Datasheets where Terminator Armour was already equipped. It was also noted as a Special Rule granted to Characters who upgrade to Terminator Armour, covering situations where non-Terminator Armour equipped Models suddenly find themselves with said armour. Every time it was mentioned as it's own Special Rule and follows the same process as every other Special Rule... if you have it, you can/must use it and nothing more was needed to show permission then that. To see a Special Rule condensed down to a footnote underneath a piece of war-gear, and to then refer to a different Special Rule that can be found on Datasheets, is one of those mind-boggling things... what does it mean indeed!

If I had to make a 'How I would Play It' call: Terminator Armour only!
I do consider precedent outside of Rule-as-written, and this formatting error is not enough to convince me that all Models now have access to this.... no longer Special Rule....