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I've just got back into the hobby from a four year hiatus. I played 5E before and stopped just before the release of 6E. Back then I found a thriving community to go along with all the cool models and rules. Back then people grumbled but mostly tolerated GW and their antics. Back then codexes weren't hard cover and $40+. Two editions later and it seems the game has changed dramatically, I fear, for the worse. I heard second hand that GW was doing some bad stuff but what really happened? I guess, as the title says, I'm just wondering What changed? And perhaps more importantly what can I do to help?

You'll see mixed opinions, but the GW bs has reached critical mass for a lot of people and they've just given up.

- Price increases, like the mentioned hard covered codexes, but generally across the board.
- DLC in the form of supplements and dataslates.
- GW shifting into the next gear in terms of "money first....nothing second". (DLC, no tourny support, branding their games as a "collector's hobby" etc)
- 2 year cycle on the main $100+ rule book
- One of the OLDEST codexes at the moment is approaching 3 years. It's nice to keep things current, but....they aren't. GW is making the older books obsolete in MONTHS now, with new books and lists just out shadowing them so badly.
- ZERO FaQ support.
- Some units and formations only available in limited edition online bundles or white dwarf magazine, without them being posted online to get to after those sources are gone.
- Their competition is really stepping up the game in terms of game play, models and just all around support
- Age of Sigmar, the new fantasy game DOES NOT EVEN USE POINTS. It literally has no balancing mechanism outside "play whatever your opponent will agree to face". More than a few people are concerned what this will mean for the future of 40k.
- GW seems to be intentionally doing whatever it can to crush any manner of competitive play, and seem to view it as some manner of cancer of their "beer and pretzels" game.

The game itself is....hurting.

- Codex balance is as bad as it's ever been in my opinion.
- Allies, while a decent idea, got completely out of hand with multi-army shenanigans.
- The CAD, formation, allied detachment....thing, really gets out of hand sometimes, and unbound, while not really THAT bad, is annoying.
- Some people really disliked fortifications as a part of the part.
- Flyers are a core part of the game now.
- Super heavies are available in all games now.
- The inclusion of Superheavies and flyers have made it almost impossible to build a take all comers list now. Dealing with a wall of AV13 titans, hundred+ model green tides, terminator spam, flyer spam, decursions....etc, with 1 list is nearly impossible without some manner of extreme list of your own. The limits of each type of army have moved further to the extremes.

Wow. First if all, great reply, thanks so much. It's heartbreaking go see GW abandon us like this. I guess I have a few questions about what you said. Do you have an idea about the scale of desertion from players? How about competitors, what are the options? Is there any movement among the community to rebel or wind back the clock? I mean is there any way for me to attempt to salvage the hobby that I loved and devoted so much to? And further, is there an idea of the root cause of the degeneration of quality coming from GW?

Might I recommend Infinity or X-Wing?

I think one of my favourite 'highlights' from the last couple of years is Codex: Imperial Knights.

A hardcover codex release for two units, which were just a single model with a weapon swap... replaced a year later by another hardcover codex for four units, which is still the same single model with a few extra bits added.

jamesk1973 wrote:
Might I recommend Infinity or X-Wing?

Thanks, I'll check those out


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:
I think one of my favourite 'highlights' from the last couple of years is Codex: Imperial Knights.

A hardcover codex release for two units, which were just a single model with a weapon swap... replaced a year later by another hardcover codex for four units, which is still the same single model with a few extra bits added.

Wow. Simply astonishing money grab from a company I once respected at least a little.

 ajax22 wrote:
Wow. First if all, great reply, thanks so much. It's heartbreaking go see GW abandon us like this. I guess I have a few questions about what you said. Do you have an idea about the scale of desertion from players? How about competitors, what are the options? Is there any movement among the community to rebel or wind back the clock? I mean is there any way for me to attempt to salvage the hobby that I loved and devoted so much to? And further, is there an idea of the root cause of the degeneration of quality coming from GW?

I have been gaming for almost 10 years and I have never seen so many other games being played before. It used to be Historical games and GW games. Now I see so many games being played by even young people my age (21 and under) and its pretty much all down to most people tired of GW and their antics. My 40k has been on the shelf for a while.

While there is no hard numbers on those leaving GW their financial statements show that they are not as prosperous anymore and continue to shrink.

I personally have found joy in heaps of other games both historical and sci fi/fantasy. But one thing I have yet to replace is 40k. It is the only game that has no great alternative unfortunately, well I find anyway.

But there are a lot of really cool games out there. What kind of games would interest you?

 ajax22 wrote:
Do you have an idea about the scale of desertion from players?

It really varies.

While overall numbers seem to be dropping, and many stores are reporting a massive drop in sales, there are still a lot of players out there who are quite happy with 7th edition, and who love the accelerated release rate.

It really just comes down to what your local players are doing.

How about competitors, what are the options?

For something on the same scale as 40K, there's still not much.

There's a whole host of skirmish games out there, and various other scifi games like X-wing or Dropzone Commander.

Is there any movement among the community to rebel or wind back the clock?

Again, varies from area to area. I've come across a few groups starting back up with 2nd edition, and there's various talk on the forums of people getting back into 4th or 5th edition.

So this would also come down to your local players.

And further, is there an idea of the root cause of the degeneration of quality coming from GW?

Declining sales, made worse by GW not having any idea why their sales are dropping (Tom Kirby is quite proud of the fact that they do no market research, for some inexplicable reason) and so just throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks.

GW are locked into the mindset that their customers will buy whatever they choose to release, and that we're all really just figurine collectors who don't actually care that much about having decent rules.

Until they pull their heads out of the sand and start talking to their customers, I would expect the decline to continue.

 ajax22 wrote:
Wow. First if all, great reply, thanks so much. It's heartbreaking go see GW abandon us like this. I guess I have a few questions about what you said. Do you have an idea about the scale of desertion from players? How about competitors, what are the options? Is there any movement among the community to rebel or wind back the clock? I mean is there any way for me to attempt to salvage the hobby that I loved and devoted so much to? And further, is there an idea of the root cause of the degeneration of quality coming from GW?

I don't have any hard numbers for you, but my local group went from 6-8 players that played every other week at my home, and once a month at a local game store tourny to.....me. Took less than a year after the release of 6th edition to do it too.

There's the odd guy here or there that wants to modify the rules or play an earlier edition, but it's hard enough getting a game in some areas without trying to arrange it with rules sets that was customized or years upon years old.

The "hobby" isn't really that bad off, it's just moving more towards "beer and pretzels" casual mode, and painting/collecting, and away from a serious game. Their models are still largely really cool and good quality.

Root cause? Money, little care for building a solid game, no market research/disconnect from their hardcore player base....take your pick.

I will say that at my FLGS the number of 40k players has stayed strong maintaining 20+ players for our weekly league nights (though plenty of players have stopped playing). A big part of that is that we use the ITC rules for the basis of most of our leagues which helps greatly curb the amount of shenanigans that can be done.

@Swastakowey Thanks for your positive perspective. Perhaps I shouldn't be so dour after all. The appealing aspects of 40k for me have always been the grimdark setting, great models and massive community both in my area and overall. An alternative for me would probably have those aspects to a degree.

@insaniak I'll get in touch with my flgs and see what's up with the league. Keeping my fingers crossed that GW do get their heads out of the sand. Maybe the profit motive will lead them to reconsider the short run/long run balance they've got going.

@Carnage Thanks again. I'll see if I can't find some players willing to stick with the old ways. For me the hobby was always the social and model aspect as well as the rocking core game however and the decline in this sector I think will really take the fun out of the other two.

@CrownAxe I'll have to see what my flgs has worked out and maybe see if I can't improve it. I'll look into ITC.

Just to be clear, there's no larger national/international movements and engagement at the local level is more reasonable?

Also, why and when did the imperial guard become the astra militarum?

thing about 7th is it's as good or bad as you want to make it. GW's basicly adopted with this edition the mind set of "here is your toolbox, build something cool" of course the value or problems with 7th edition are going to highly depend on the TYPE of gamer you are. if you have a few budies you wanna play 40k with around a table, nothing too serious, maybe trying to enact a cool story about ultramarines fighting Tyranids alongside the adeptus Mechanius. 7th ed will work for you. if you're a very tourny focused player who wants strong structure and a compeitive friendly enviroment 7th edition proably isn't for you

 Carnage43 wrote:
- Codex balance is as bad as it's ever been in my opinion.

The sad part is that prior to the new Eldar codex dropping it was getting way better with every release...I actually thought the game was going to be balanced within a year or two. Prior to the Necron codex it was really good, and even with the new crons it was doable. Things were looking great! Then we saw the Codex: Craftworlds leaks...and the game has been hurtling into oblivion ever since.

Allow me to be the lone non-chicken little.

The other thing we've seen is the resurgence of a variety that hasn't existed in the game in a long time.

I've played since fifth edition. Back then, there were a dozen armies and each one tended to have their "this is what's good" build.

Now, there are allies systems, new Harlequin, AdMech, and Imperial Knights, and formations within the codexes to make more builds available to each army. Each new codex that comes out makes more and more options for the army. Have there been a few derpy moves? Yeah it's fething GW, wraithknights are friggin' stupid, are the prices nuts? Yeah. But they always have been and at least now I know I'm getting a sweet kit when I pay 50$ for 100 points of ork stuff it's better than 30$ for that awful ugly Deffbuggy.


I'm playing what many think is the worst army right now, and I can think of five completely different army builds using some combination of the codex, the supplement, and the free forgeworld list that I've used to stand up to the big boyz of the month.


There's a group of professional whiners on this forum, that I've only ever seen shout doom and gloom for years. Really the game is the same as it's always been: find a good group, you'll have a good time.

X-Wing is a very nice game with constant expansions, excellent sculpts, an interactive company, and an active weekly gaming event sponsored by FFG.

Infinity is burdened with tight rules, multiple scenario books, excellent (in scale!) sculpts, and a company that just won't stop taking customer feedback. Terrible game really.

the_scotsman wrote:
Allow me to be the lone non-chicken little.

The other thing we've seen is the resurgence of a variety that hasn't existed in the game in a long time.

I've played since fifth edition. Back then, there were a dozen armies and each one tended to have their "this is what's good" build.

Now, there are allies systems, new Harlequin, AdMech, and Imperial Knights, and formations within the codexes to make more builds available to each army. Each new codex that comes out makes more and more options for the army. Have there been a few derpy moves? Yeah it's fething GW, wraithknights are friggin' stupid, are the prices nuts? Yeah. But they always have been and at least now I know I'm getting a sweet kit when I pay 50$ for 100 points of ork stuff it's better than 30$ for that awful ugly Deffbuggy.


I'm playing what many think is the worst army right now, and I can think of five completely different army builds using some combination of the codex, the supplement, and the free forgeworld list that I've used to stand up to the big boyz of the month.


There's a group of professional whiners on this forum, that I've only ever seen shout doom and gloom for years. Really the game is the same as it's always been: find a good group, you'll have a good time.

Honestly, I agree with this. Yeah, the prices are going up. Yeah, the FAQs are gone. Yeah the army imbalance is ever present. But, it's still 40k. I've been playing since half way through 6th, and honestly, 7th has only made things better in my opinion.

Yeah, I hate Imperial Knights, I hate the ally matrix, I hate fighting multiple 300 point Super heavies in regular games, and I hate how some armies have almost no chance at winning a lot of the time. But I love my army, I love my codex, I love my models, and I love the gaming group I have at my local store. There's nothing quite like 40k, and that's why I play it.

I will, however, never play competitively.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Yeah, I hate Imperial Knights, I hate the ally matrix, I hate fighting multiple 300 point Super heavies in regular games, and I hate how some armies have almost no chance at winning a lot of the time. But I love my army, I love my codex, I love my models, and I love the gaming group I have at my local store. There's nothing quite like 40k, and that's why I play it.

I will, however, never play competitively.

This. As bad as GW is and with all the thigns I dislike, there is no real alternative to 40k as far as I am concerned. The setting, the art, the models. Say what you want, but to me their models (in general) are far ahead of their opposition. And every time I'm down about GW, Forge world releases some crazy awesome kit. I keep raging about GW and their asinine decisions, but at the end of the day, I will keep playing until they pull an AoS on 40k.

I also have no intention to play competively, but I would sacrifice somebodies first born for air tight rules. Still, the good thing about AoS is that GW has shown it willing to take risks and change. Which is huge for GW. Ofc it wouldn't be GW if they didn't fail in the execution, but hey....it's something right?

40k is at its all time fun for me.

I would listen less to the angry voices on dakka, and try some 7th edition games at your flgs. Judge it for yourself. You generally see the same people here on dakka complaining about GW.

Go out, meet some people, play some games, formulate your own opinion.

It's pretty fun at the minute, as long as you have an opponent of a similar mindset to yourself.

7th edition was so bad it kicked me, a 20+ year veteran right out. The worst part was that the bad changes were so obviously just cheap money grabs. They're sacrificing their game for short term profits.

Look around. There are so many much better games out there that it would a shame to start back up with 40k. It has the worst rules and is by far the most expensive to play with full sized armies and expensive rules that get invalidated every two years.

Malifaux, Warmachine, Infinity, Drop Zone Commander...heck, anything would be better.

Provided you are playing one of the 'Holy Trinity' (IE Eldar, Necrons and Space Marines) you will have a great time as you are nigh invincible. If you are playing one of the not so good but still competitive ones such as Tau and Dark Eldar you will have a good time, if a little challenging.
however if you are playing Imperial Guard one of the other weak ones then prepare your anus. Seriously it is almost impossible to beat some armies with the weaker codexes.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Provided you are playing one of the 'Holy Trinity' (IE Eldar, Necrons and Space Marines) you will have a great time as you are nigh invincible. If you are playing one of the not so good but still competitive ones such as Tau and Dark Eldar you will have a good time, if a little challenging.
however if you are playing Imperial Guard one of the other weak ones then prepare your anus. Seriously it is almost impossible to beat some armies with the weaker codexes.

I play Nids as a second army, and I've done very well and have had a ton of fun using non-net/non-competitive lists. And I don't play in a little kid group, people bring decent lists most of the time. We're just not super competitive.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Provided you are playing one of the 'Holy Trinity' (IE Eldar, Necrons and Space Marines) you will have a great time as you are nigh invincible. If you are playing one of the not so good but still competitive ones such as Tau and Dark Eldar you will have a good time, if a little challenging.
however if you are playing Imperial Guard one of the other weak ones then prepare your anus. Seriously it is almost impossible to beat some armies with the weaker codexes.

I play Nids as a second army, and I've done very well and have had a ton of fun using non-net/non-competitive lists. And I don't play in a little kid group, people bring decent lists most of the time. We're just not super competitive.

I envy you. I faced three Ravenwing flyers the other day. Seriously, that re - rollable Jink save is a nightmare.

That said the Imperial Guard are the weakest codex right now, all things given

 master of ordinance wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Provided you are playing one of the 'Holy Trinity' (IE Eldar, Necrons and Space Marines) you will have a great time as you are nigh invincible. If you are playing one of the not so good but still competitive ones such as Tau and Dark Eldar you will have a good time, if a little challenging.
however if you are playing Imperial Guard one of the other weak ones then prepare your anus. Seriously it is almost impossible to beat some armies with the weaker codexes.

I play Nids as a second army, and I've done very well and have had a ton of fun using non-net/non-competitive lists. And I don't play in a little kid group, people bring decent lists most of the time. We're just not super competitive.

I envy you. I faced three Ravenwing flyers the other day. Seriously, that re - rollable Jink save is a nightmare.

That said the Imperial Guard are the weakest codex right now, all things given

Guard have a few strengths. First time against them with the Cron dex it ended up in a tie because of how many Obj Sec units he had.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Provided you are playing one of the 'Holy Trinity' (IE Eldar, Necrons and Space Marines) you will have a great time as you are nigh invincible. If you are playing one of the not so good but still competitive ones such as Tau and Dark Eldar you will have a good time, if a little challenging.
however if you are playing Imperial Guard one of the other weak ones then prepare your anus. Seriously it is almost impossible to beat some armies with the weaker codexes.

I play Nids as a second army, and I've done very well and have had a ton of fun using non-net/non-competitive lists. And I don't play in a little kid group, people bring decent lists most of the time. We're just not super competitive.

I envy you. I faced three Ravenwing flyers the other day. Seriously, that re - rollable Jink save is a nightmare.

That said the Imperial Guard are the weakest codex right now, all things given

Guard have a few strengths. First time against them with the Cron dex it ended up in a tie because of how many Obj Sec units he had.

Feel lucky it was an ObSec match and he didnt know how to face off against IG.

Feel lucky it was an ObSec match and he didnt know how to face off against IG.

Let me guess, you play IG? No one I know considers them the weakest army, but you also posted that Dark Eldar were really strong up above, so... different strokes for different folks I guess.

To the OP, 40k these days is an interesting beast. If you just go by the internet, it's the worst it's ever been and about to come to a huge collapse. If you go out and play some games with friends though, you might actually like it. So, I say give it a try. I've been playing since 3rd edition, and it's definitely changed, and GW certainly has a lot of issues, more than ever, but I still keep playing the game. I even have fun playing the least supported army in the game, that many people in the thread above listed as the weakest around. Still have a good time playing, still win my fair share. Win more with other armies, but still.

Like I said above, I need the get in touch with the crowd at my FLGS. Getting back in I've only come here to dakka and seen the forums burning. I need to borrow the new book and check it out. Thanks for the input.

Locrian wrote:

Feel lucky it was an ObSec match and he didnt know how to face off against IG.

Let me guess, you play IG? No one I know considers them the weakest army, but you also posted that Dark Eldar were really strong up above, so... different strokes for different folks I guess.

To the OP, 40k these days is an interesting beast. If you just go by the internet, it's the worst it's ever been and about to come to a huge collapse. If you go out and play some games with friends though, you might actually like it. So, I say give it a try. I've been playing since 3rd edition, and it's definitely changed, and GW certainly has a lot of issues, more than ever, but I still keep playing the game. I even have fun playing the least supported army in the game, that many people in the thread above listed as the weakest around. Still have a good time playing, still win my fair share. Win more with other armies, but still.

Facing down Ravenwing re-rollable jink dickery, Tau 'feth you we have more guns and tougher units which are massively underpriced' bullgak, Space Marine 'I can do whatever the hell I want with these formations because GW loves me and whilst we are at it most of my units are way to cheap for what they do but it is fair because "forging the narrative"' fun, Eldar 'D for everyone/Scatbikes are love scatbikes are life' fetishes and Space Wolf 'You rely on shooting? Aww, what a pity' outflanking rape machines really puts ones perspective at a kind of skewed glance.
After all we have, you know, nothing that can really compete with anything like that.....

Some of the things done in seventh edition compared to the edition I stared in (5th) I've actually liked okay. But my playgroup (family) doesn't try to abide them that much.

-LoW: Imperial Knights were cool and I like running a Blade with my IG force, but only one LoW, and only at 2000+. Multiples would quickly become annoying.
-Fortifications were nice, seemed to be an interesting addition and I like how the fit with my guards fluff.
-I like allies. Let me clarify, I like it so I can grab Inquisition allies, as it makes so much sense fluff wise for them to team up with other forces.
-Formations are a cool idea, but there should be some sort of tax for them. Probably just upset that IG barely has any.

IG have had some tough times, not the least of which was an extremely stupid name change. For the OP, Infinity, X-Wing, Warmahordes, and Dropzone Commander are all alternatives that I would suggest. What's going to end up is that GW will collapse, so I'll have to homebrew the entire game from scratch. UUUGGGHHH.

Also a 20+ year 40k veteran. I went to Infinity and never looked back. I also play Warmachine and X Wing. There are so many great games out there, why settle for expensive and poor rules that become obsolete in a few months?