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I'm doing an ulthwe army with an avatar so I assume storm guardians are better with him but in GENERAL which of these two bad units are the least bad

Neither of them are bad units you idiot, storm guardians are rarely used because they need an open topped transport and there isn't one.

Take 3 squads of 20 of these and put them near an avatar. Even the defenders will maul anything remotely infantry like in close combat.

Guardian defenders have by far the best gun and BS in the game for 9 pts. They also have battle focus. I never take a platform just take 3 squads of 10 in wave serpents and dump and pump.

Alternatively if the ork warboss and his nob mates is on a bike get 2 squads of 20 stormies with a warlock each put the avatar in a building and DO NOT MOVE. Footdar works fine if they are tyranids, space wolves drop pods or orks.. they WANT to come to you

ConanMan wrote:
Neither of them are bad units you idiot

isnt really an answer lol. also I was under the impression compared to dire avengers guardians are technically "bad"

ConanMan wrote:
Neither of them are bad units you idiot

afaik storm are pretty lack luster out of the entire codex.

Guardian defenders are the better ones.

 n0t_u wrote:

ConanMan wrote:
Neither of them are bad units you idiot

afaik storm are pretty lack luster out of the entire codex.

Guardian defenders are the better ones.

If you have 20 near an avatar it costs LESS than the avatar and they do 80 str 4 attacks on the charge.

If you have the formation 16 of those will have power weapons.

The ability to absorb any 1850 pt rush for 395 points is why you take them seriously

ConanMan wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:

ConanMan wrote:
Neither of them are bad units you idiot

afaik storm are pretty lack luster out of the entire codex.

Guardian defenders are the better ones.

If you have 20 near an avatar it costs LESS than the avatar and they do 80 str 4 attacks on the charge.

If you have the formation 16 of those will have power weapons.

The ability to absorb any 1850 pt rush for 395 points is why you take them seriously

yeh thats the thing. normally I would agree but with an avatar?

ConanMan wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:

ConanMan wrote:
Neither of them are bad units you idiot

afaik storm are pretty lack luster out of the entire codex.

Guardian defenders are the better ones.

If you have 20 near an avatar it costs LESS than the avatar and they do 80 str 4 attacks on the charge.

If you have the formation 16 of those will have power weapons.

The ability to absorb any 1850 pt rush for 395 points is why you take them seriously

And you'd have to get the Guardians to make the charge in the first place. They are NOT quick.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

ConanMan wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:

ConanMan wrote:
Neither of them are bad units you idiot

afaik storm are pretty lack luster out of the entire codex.

Guardian defenders are the better ones.

If you have 20 near an avatar it costs LESS than the avatar and they do 80 str 4 attacks on the charge.

If you have the formation 16 of those will have power weapons.

The ability to absorb any 1850 pt rush for 395 points is why you take them seriously

And you'd have to get the Guardians to make the charge in the first place. They are NOT quick.

i mean they can run 6 or can be given a serpent. also aren't there a lot of lists now that drop pot on your face? skyhammer/marine drop pot list. idk its not like I care more about storm guardians they just seem cool with an avatar

I have actually been toying with this in the context of a craftworld warhost with aspect hosts and foot seer council starting behind an ADL and a bastion to hide the avatar behind (imperial strong point). If you space it right you can GtG with the aspect host and guardian units turn 1 and then walk the avatar forward to put the units into his fearless bubble thus making all the units that have GtG get back up. You can even run back out of range latter or move everybody forward.

The guardians are not slow in any stretch of the imagination. They are gauranteed 12" of movement a turn. When you mix them with good support elements like warp spiders and swooping hawks to help harrass the opponent you will find that the guardians make for good area denial and grabing backfield and midfield objectives.

As for which are better; storm or defender. IMO it is really dependent on the list style. The avatar does well in two types of list. One version with the storms you rush forward from behind your ADL turn 1. This version is significantly less durable but also works better with spamming warp spiders and swooping hawks as combined they tend to put enough pressure on the opponent to let the storms take midfield. Then it is just a question of whether you can do enough damage to survive the attrition cycle.

Defenders actually work really well with a D cannon vaul's wrath battery behind an ADL and an avatar to provide counter assault, GtG popup shenanigans and turn 5-6 objective smach and grabs (which starts on turn 4 BTW). The list is much more about long ranged shooting and endurance though so I recommend taking more durable elements as your forward support.

I would not recommend guardians outside a craftworld warhost. They are slow and overcosted for the range/damage. It is only with the 6" guaranteed run and free wragear that they start matching up well against most of the good core infantry choices.

IMO storms do more damage but do it inconsitently and all in a turn or two. Their main advantage is they are actually pretty scary to get near when they sport 2 melta, 2 power swords, and furious charge. Defenders do a bit less damage but they do it consistently with the weapon platforms constantly putting out damage. They are also pretty scary for most troop choices to get within 24" of (12" range, 6" movement, 6" battle focus) but most serious frontline units will not really care about shu catapult shooting. Both options desperately need proper support or they will do little to nothing.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

ConanMan wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:

ConanMan wrote:
Neither of them are bad units you idiot

afaik storm are pretty lack luster out of the entire codex.

Guardian defenders are the better ones.

If you have 20 near an avatar it costs LESS than the avatar and they do 80 str 4 attacks on the charge.

If you have the formation 16 of those will have power weapons.

The ability to absorb any 1850 pt rush for 395 points is why you take them seriously

And you'd have to get the Guardians to make the charge in the first place. They are NOT quick.

I've been pondering this strategy myself with the new book, but haven't tried it. Storm Guardians ARE pretty quick though! Taken as part of the Warhost, they run 6", plus they have Fleet on the charge. You've got a pretty good shot at getting a turn 2 charge off with them. For something extra nasty, in addition to the Avatar, stick Kharandras or Jain Zar in with one of the Storm Guardian groups to tank wounds with their 2+ armor.

Yes, foot slogging Storm Guardians probably won't be THAT scary, even 24 of them with an Avatar, but I don't think it'd be horrible either.

For good measure add in a unit of Howling Banshees nearby.

Murrdox wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

ConanMan wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:

ConanMan wrote:
Neither of them are bad units you idiot

afaik storm are pretty lack luster out of the entire codex.

Guardian defenders are the better ones.

If you have 20 near an avatar it costs LESS than the avatar and they do 80 str 4 attacks on the charge.

If you have the formation 16 of those will have power weapons.

The ability to absorb any 1850 pt rush for 395 points is why you take them seriously

And you'd have to get the Guardians to make the charge in the first place. They are NOT quick.

I've been pondering this strategy myself with the new book, but haven't tried it. Storm Guardians ARE pretty quick though! Taken as part of the Warhost, they run 6", plus they have Fleet on the charge. You've got a pretty good shot at getting a turn 2 charge off with them. For something extra nasty, in addition to the Avatar, stick Kharandras or Jain Zar in with one of the Storm Guardian groups to tank wounds with their 2+ armor.

Yes, foot slogging Storm Guardians probably won't be THAT scary, even 24 of them with an Avatar, but I don't think it'd be horrible either.

For good measure add in a unit of Howling Banshees nearby.

I am running a battlehost. The thing is I really love the avatar model from forgeworld AND ulthwe. That combo leads me to want to use guardian based army with a footseer council (cus eldrad) I play to have MANY warlocks and to heal up the avatar/if the gods allow it give him fortune/improve his save or run two. I just cant decide if its worth losing the catapults which frankly, are not that bad in exchange for power swords and lots of attacks which may do well vs these MSU lists and skyhammer type formations

Guardian defenders are almost as good as storm guardians. Do you want a extra Str 3 Ap- attack hitting on 4+, or an extra Str4 Ap5 shot hitting on 3+?

20 Man Defender blob. Warlock w/ Conceal, Avatar nearby for fearless/rage/furious charge. Throw in Baharroth (2+ and H&R), and you've got a blob IG players might get jealous of.

Belly wrote:
Guardian defenders are almost as good as storm guardians. Do you want a extra Str 3 Ap- attack hitting on 4+, or an extra Str4 Ap5 shot hitting on 3+?

20 Man Defender blob. Warlock w/ Conceal, Avatar nearby for fearless/rage/furious charge. Throw in Baharroth (2+ and H&R), and you've got a blob IG players might get jealous of.

that is a good point. i suppose tho power weps are kinda nice... but yeh i guess defenders are universally prob better... lol hm

without reading any of the other comments on this post besides the first one, I can help but say

#1 - bro, rule #1, be nice.

#2 - storm guardians are bad because they don't have a way of getting into assault, they are very squishy (relying entirely on cover for saves), so in combat, T3 5+ armour guys are pretty lackluster even at I5 with lots of attacks, they are only S3.

#3 - regular guardians are cool, but just like DE kabalite warriors, they are hardpressed to start on foot. Again, only T3, 5+ save all that stuff. With 10 man units, w/ bright lance in the back in ruins. With Dire Avengers in serpents and lots of different threats, they can hold an objective pretty well, and add some extra anti tank, and protect your backfields against outflanking units.

just my $0.02, I could easily be wrong, anyways, happy wargaming,

-Mikey

I've been using Storm Guardians pretty well.

72 points buys 2 melta guns, which is nice, and 2 power swords, which is irrelevant, but it's nice to look at.

Everything's in your face nowadays, one platform isn't as good as 2 melta guns for cheaper.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
I've been using Storm Guardians pretty well.

72 points buys 2 melta guns, which is nice, and 2 power swords, which is irrelevant, but it's nice to look at.

Everything's in your face nowadays, one platform isn't as good as 2 melta guns for cheaper.

everyones kinda split on this. Since i'm using the formation the cost doesnt matter

eosgreen wrote:

everyones kinda split on this. Since i'm using the formation the cost doesnt matter

Cost still matters. Storm Guardians are 72, Defenders are 90.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

eosgreen wrote:

everyones kinda split on this. Since i'm using the formation the cost doesnt matter

Cost still matters. Storm Guardians are 72, Defenders are 90.

man i didnt even look at that but is 48 points that big a deal? i can see the arguement for the entire squad getting 2 bladestorm shots being better as well as the wep platform.... i see merit in both lol hard to decide.