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Hey all,
Once again I am posting about Chaos - getting pretty into them atm. I have a few questions:

1) Is Daemonology actually any good? I noticed that its quite dangerous for your psyker, as you'd expect; summoning extra squads for you to use and such. But is it worth the almost certain possibility for your psyker to be sucked into the never ending depth of the warp, only leaving a small patch of smouldering soil where the poor guy was standing? Or should I go with something else like pyromancy?

2) Are Chaos Spawn as good as they seem? A squad of 5 is incredibly cheap, and having so many wounds and toughness 5, they seem like a pretty swish thing to have surrounding your Lord.

3) Is a list of Thousand Sons good? With Psykers as every sergeant, fire bullets of AP3 and lots of fire dmg after, are they worth the pt cost? Tzeentch is my favourite God :3

4) Is the codex actually a viable dex to use? I.E. Can you be at all competitive with it, WITHOUT using Nurgle

Thanks for all the help everyone

Pyromancy is bad. Daemonology is actually fairly amazing.

Errr, it's really, really good if used properly, you're getting hundreds of points of free units (but don't be silly and give away kill points and first blood too easily). Yes if you aren't using Daemons then you peril very easily, but Perils isn't that bad unless you both roll a 1 and fail a LD10 test (1 in 72 chance of both happening).

So, would it be better if I used a daemon psyker? (Never used the daemon codex but will buy it) or is it still badass using a lvl3 chaos sorcerer?

I personally love it, because I use dirt dirt cheap ork psykers. 35pts for a guy who gets 2 WCs a turn and can shoot strength D attacks, I'm thinking that's pretty sweet! Only problem is Sanctic has a gak Primaris.

It does seem pretty grand. As I was reading through I thought a lot of the powers sounded pretty glorious. I was thinking I'd use ghost models as daemons (as Kranon doesn't worship any gods) or just use Tzeentch daemons. That actually leads into a second question - what daemon type is better? Khorne, Tzeentch, etc?

Daemon superiority is not split by gods, but by spesific units, and often by scenario.

For summoning, tzentch rules, due to his infantry generating more dice.
Anti-marine you want bloodletters, anti-TEQ you are better off with slanassh she-dudes, for obj sitting plaguebearers are a pain in the ass, etc.

The true power of summoning is not in the fact you get more dudes, its the fact you pick what to summon after you already know whats sitting on the other side of the table.

Tiberius501 wrote:
So, would it be better if I used a daemon psyker? (Never used the daemon codex but will buy it) or is it still badass using a lvl3 chaos sorcerer?

Or you could just use a Tzeentch Daemon prince from the CSM book. With a Spell Familiar, he'd summon stuff like crazy.

1. I don't run much of a summoning list, so I'll leave that one alone. It looks like you got that answered above.

2. Spawn are one of the standout units of the CSM codex. Nurgle marked they are pretty damn tough, but if not, go unmarked--the others are a waste of points. They work best as a bodyguard unit or harassment unit as they are incredibly fast.

3. Define "viable." It works in the sense that it allows you to play it, but no, it isn't particularly competitive. In fact it is likely the worst codex in that regard at the moment. But don't let that dissuade you. It works fine in casual games, an it's my favorite codex in terms of having fun because I love the fluff and it allows for remarkably varied armies. Plus, as the oldest current codex, it is likely to be getting a new edition relatively soon.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Tiberius501 wrote:
So, would it be better if I used a daemon psyker? (Never used the daemon codex but will buy it) or is it still badass using a lvl3 chaos sorcerer?

Or you could just use a Tzeentch Daemon prince from the CSM book. With a Spell Familiar, he'd summon stuff like crazy.

That sounds like a grand plan, not sure why I didn't think of it Kinda new to chaos haha

Tiberius501 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Tiberius501 wrote:
So, would it be better if I used a daemon psyker? (Never used the daemon codex but will buy it) or is it still badass using a lvl3 chaos sorcerer?

Or you could just use a Tzeentch Daemon prince from the CSM book. With a Spell Familiar, he'd summon stuff like crazy.

That sounds like a grand plan, not sure why I didn't think of it Kinda new to chaos haha

Lol, yeah. In the Daemon book, the Daemon prince is pretty much the same unit, just with access to Demonic gifts. Same statline and everything. So yeah, have him flying around summoning more Daemons while rerolling failed Psychic tests.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
1. I don't run much of a summoning list, so I'll leave that one alone. It looks like you got that answered above.

2. Spawn are one of the standout units of the CSM codex. Nurgle marked they are pretty damn tough, but if not, go unmarked--the others are a waste of points. They work best as a bodyguard unit or harassment unit as they are incredibly fast.

3. Define "viable." It works in the sense that it allows you to play it, but no, it isn't particularly competitive. In fact it is likely the worst codex in that regard at the moment. But don't let that dissuade you. It works fine in casual games, an it's my favorite codex in terms of having fun because I love the fluff and it allows for remarkably varied armies. Plus, as the oldest current codex, it is likely to be getting a new edition relatively soon.

Alright, awesome about spawn. I'm interested in using them a lot and its good to know its viable for fun. I hear, in GW last schedule post that Chaos is the next codex, after the AoS stuff, so I'm pretty pumped for that I'm excited to see what models they update - would love to see some updated chaos marine troops. They are terrible figures haha


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Tiberius501 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Tiberius501 wrote:
So, would it be better if I used a daemon psyker? (Never used the daemon codex but will buy it) or is it still badass using a lvl3 chaos sorcerer?

Or you could just use a Tzeentch Daemon prince from the CSM book. With a Spell Familiar, he'd summon stuff like crazy.

That sounds like a grand plan, not sure why I didn't think of it Kinda new to chaos haha

Lol, yeah. In the Daemon book, the Daemon prince is pretty much the same unit, just with access to Demonic gifts. Same statline and everything. So yeah, have him flying around summoning more Daemons while rerolling failed Psychic tests.

Hell yes! That sounds like a lot of fun

Tiberius501 wrote:

Hell yes! That sounds like a lot of fun

Also, to answer some more of your questions...

No, CSM are not in any way competitive, and probably require a bit more skill to play effectively, depending on your meta. But as mentioned above, don't let that discourage you. Play what you like to play, and have fun.

Thousand Sons are awesome, as Tzeentch is my favorite god as well. That being said, they are way too expensive for what you get, and their stick is having 4++/AP3 Boltguns. There are far too many crazy things out there that would swiftly destroy them.

Tiberius501 wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
1. I don't run much of a summoning list, so I'll leave that one alone. It looks like you got that answered above.

2. Spawn are one of the standout units of the CSM codex. Nurgle marked they are pretty damn tough, but if not, go unmarked--the others are a waste of points. They work best as a bodyguard unit or harassment unit as they are incredibly fast.

3. Define "viable." It works in the sense that it allows you to play it, but no, it isn't particularly competitive. In fact it is likely the worst codex in that regard at the moment. But don't let that dissuade you. It works fine in casual games, an it's my favorite codex in terms of having fun because I love the fluff and it allows for remarkably varied armies. Plus, as the oldest current codex, it is likely to be getting a new edition relatively soon.

Alright, awesome about spawn. I'm interested in using them a lot and its good to know its viable for fun. I hear, in GW last schedule post that Chaos is the next codex, after the AoS stuff, so I'm pretty pumped for that I'm excited to see what models they update - would love to see some updated chaos marine troops. They are terrible figures haha

Actaully, going by the more reliable rumors, Tau is up next, likely in October or the very end of September. Then it's quite possible we'll see Guar... er, Astra Milita-whatever after that. Don't hold your breath expecting anything Chaos to release anytime soon, as the earliest possible window is rumored to be March. (and I'm sure that we'll also see Tyranids & either Wolves or BA's first, because.... "Reasons.")


As for Thousand Sons, they have their uses, few as they are...
Take a minimum unit of 5 and for 150pts, you get a WC point, a pair of psychic powers, and a likely Obsec unit that can tank ap1-3 attacks. They're also invaluable if you run Ahriman, as the only other decent bodyguard option for him is a unit of MoT Terminators. (and that's only a choice if you run him with Santic powers)

When it comes to choosing your psychic lore, keep in mind the following;
1. Malefic Daemonology is amazing at plugging holes/augmenting your list during the game itself. Need some on-the-spot Termie killers? Summon 10 Daemonettes including an Alluress toting and ap2 sword! Are you starting down a crapload of bikers who run away from you? Summon some Flesh Hounds and chase those cowards down! Need more WC's? Summon some Horrors and/or a Tzherald or three!
The trick is to not go overboard on the summoning... Used in moderation to grab a unit or two when you need some additional specialised bodies, it's 'uber powerful. But used as an outright army-wide tactic it's hilariously crap as all you do is put more stuff on the table without inflicting any sustainable damage to your opponent's army.

Of note as well, if you're going to use Malefic Daemonology, consider running the Crimson Slaughter codex, as the relic 'Prophet of the Voices' gives the equipped model the Daemon special rule. Thus when given to a Sorcerer, he can cast Malefic without the worry of near-guaranteed perils on every casting attempt!

2. Santic Daemonology is a hidden gem that works especially well on an army sporting lots of invuln save units and/or more assault based. While you suffer the much higher risk of Perils, keep in mind that only 1 of the spells you really want is a WC2 power - everything else is just WC1!
A really fun combo here is to give Ahriman 2 rolls on Santic and hope for Gate of Infinity. Take Psychic Shriek as his 3rd and final power, throw him in with some MoT Termies sporting combi-plasmas, and Gate around the table wiping out targets at will!
Or else, if you land Cleasning Flame, (the game's best Nova power!), put your Sorc in a Rhino and have fun driving around popping off your power out of the top hatch. Being a Nova type power, Flame is brutal against FMC's especially due to it simply being auto-hits.

3. Telepathy is a go to lore because of Psychic Shriek and Invisibility. The former is just plain powerful as it can outright remove high pts, low model count units from the table. It's really good vs. MC's who have lower Ld, as you're likely to either kill them outright, or else leave them with just one or two wounds.
The latter is hailed as the most broken power in the game, and can help you build a viable 'Deathstar' unit. Expect to hear whining and crying over the use of Invis, especially when you slap it on say, a unit of Spawn escorting an Axe of Blind Fury Jugger Lord!
You can also outright guarantee the entire lore of Telepathy by taking the Daemon Prince Be'lakor, as he automatically knows all 7 spells.

I'll let someone else go over Biomancy, as I haven't used it much.

Biomancy is awesome lol. Now that sorcerors come with force mauls, if you roll iron arm, that S6 / AP4 turns into S9 / AP2 at initiative! Instant death thanks to force. And you have at least 7 toughness as a bonus. Ona Daemon prince it removes their primary weakness of dieing to massed small arms.

Warp speed almost makes sure you strike first and you get 3 extra attacks. Combined with iron arm this becomes super scary. Fleet is pretty much pointless though, since it only works in a unit full of fleet. I suppose i'ts nice to have on a daemon prince.

Enfeeble makes Plasma guns and autocannons instant kill T4 models. It also makes your MoN units into super tarpits as S4 models only wound on a 6 now. On bikes and Jump packs it can kill the odd guy with dangerous terrain tests. Don't underestimate dangerous terrain. On the turn they charge they might have to take 3 tests. One for moving, one for charging and one for piling in. Or even immobilize a vehicle. Heavy bolters will wound T4 on 2+. A WK can be wounded by bolters etc.
It's an all around useful power. It also stacks with gift of contagion and I suppose you could kill S2 units in this way in theory.

Endurance is great too. even if it was only fnp(4+). In combination with enfeeble your MoN units are going to be almost unkillable. But it also gives relentless. So you give this to plasma gun chosen or raptors. Or even Havocs with heavy weapons or you know... noise marines. Enjoy that full salvo on the move. Eternal warrior is nice for a few units, but mostly for a daemon prince. Its great there.

Life Leech is basically a Tau plasma gun. Which isn't a bad thing. And if you get it on a daemon prince it can be pretty nice actually. Its a lot more reliable than iwnd, and you can use both. If you have both a lord and a sorcerer in a unit then it can help the lord as you move to the next unit. Or use it to heal a wound on an obliterator if you get close enough. Also useful if you like plasma pistols.

Haemorrhage is pretty iffy though. It might let you snipe a special weapon or so, but you need to pass it on 3 warp charges for that. Do note however that it does NOT use unmodified toughness tests. So if you manage to hit that unit with enfeeble and/or gift of contagion, then things WILL die. So it could potentially cause some damage, but the warp charge cost and powers needed to set it up makes it not very useful. At least those powers will also work with the black mace. So that would allow you to delete just about any unit provided they don't have invulnerable saves. It ignores cover too.

And Smite is....ok. It's a better bolter. It's nice in a plasma unit to add some extra AP2 hits I guess.

Tiberius501 wrote:
Hey all,
Once again I am posting about Chaos - getting pretty into them atm. I have a few questions:

1) Is Daemonology actually any good? I noticed that its quite dangerous for your psyker, as you'd expect; summoning extra squads for you to use and such. But is it worth the almost certain possibility for your psyker to be sucked into the never ending depth of the warp, only leaving a small patch of smouldering soil where the poor guy was standing? Or should I go with something else like pyromancy?

2) Are Chaos Spawn as good as they seem? A squad of 5 is incredibly cheap, and having so many wounds and toughness 5, they seem like a pretty swish thing to have surrounding your Lord.

3) Is a list of Thousand Sons good? With Psykers as every sergeant, fire bullets of AP3 and lots of fire dmg after, are they worth the pt cost? Tzeentch is my favourite God :3

4) Is the codex actually a viable dex to use? I.E. Can you be at all competitive with it, WITHOUT using Nurgle

Thanks for all the help everyone

I play all of the chaos powers, so have some thoughts for you:
1) Yes Daemonology is helpful. It can help bolster the otherwise lackluster CSM codex in more competitive environments. I do dislike access to it by forces that are not supposed to be evil/chaotic though.

2) Yes Spawn are very useful. Cheap flanking units of spawn really annoy your opponents. Used to be an apocalypse formation that was just spawn.

3) Thousand sons are decent against other infantry, but otherwise are lackluster against anything else. Their inability to add special or heavy weapons make them overpriced for what you can do with them. You have to support them with a lot of good shooty stuff to deal with the heavier threats that will just gun down the thousand sons with impunity.

4) From a competitive side, no it isn't that viable. Daemonology helps, as to do some allied daemons, but it is really at the low end of the power scales right now as it was one of the first 6th edition books back when GW thought they wanted to try and cut back on the power level. Now that they have upticked the power level since the latest Necron update CSMs fall woefully short in more competitive environments.