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I am starting a CSM Army Black Legion Themed. I'm looking for experienced CSM players to help me build a thematic, yet competitive list.

1. I like the idea of dangerous tough units.
2. I don't like throw away units like cultist.
3. I think FW is cool will buy/use it.
4. I'm thinking Chosen for my Troops, but would be cool with Noise Marines or Plague Marines. They are all tough and pack a punch.
5. I want my HQ to be scary in Challenges. Abaddon clearly fits the description, but I worry he costs too much. Also I think a more mobile version would be better. Either a Juggalord or a Nurgle Biker, or both for that matter. Also I don't know if they should run together in a unit of Bikers or they should be split up.
6. I really like the stats of the Fire Raptor. Especially with the Side Reaper Cannons for 10pts.
7. The list also needs long range durable support. The new Chaos Knight looks reasonable, but I'm disappointed that there are only 2 variants unlike the Imperial.
8. If the list needs Daemon support that is cool too.
9. Especially Be'lakor.

Thanks in advance.

Nope...I been there and done that. The Black Legion votlw tax is not worth it. Chosen as troops are not worth it as they die super easy. Abaddon is never worth it.

I only recommend Plague Marines and have seen enemy Noise marines to great success.

For straight up CSM done ultra cheap try my list.

2 Sorc on bikes, Force Staves for the +2 str, ML3 and spell familiar @160prsx2=320. Buy Dark Vengeance DA bikers dirt cheap and convert. You want them trying to cast cursed earth. To get invisibility you need Black Legion or something.

accompanied by 2 squads of 5 Spawns scratch built using other toys sawed off and sewn together on terminator bases. 2x5 Spawns, MoN@180 x2=360

Or buy DA dark vengeance bikers. Take MoN for all.

Troops: 2x10 cultists@100

Everyone takes a Heldrake. Admitedly I dont know a way to scratch build it cheap.

Heavy support :
Now this is where you save the most money. Buy terminators and take their combi bolter and glue other guns on. Bam! you have upgraded them into obliterators and save so much money!
Take 3x3 oblitz, MoN @228ptsx3=684pts

If there is any way to build a black legion themed army with any sort of comeptitiveness please let me know. Wanted to make something like this since the newer CSM codex came out.

My slanesh list is slightly different and not nearly as cheap as I'm no good at scratch building and don't like the results I see in general, when possible I buy gw models. That being said, I have two different versions. One is more of a gunline, the other more aggressive.

Chaos lord, bike, mark of slanesh, lightning claw, powerfist, sigil

Choas sorcerer ml3 spell familiar

10 noise marines, 2 blastmasters, doom siren, rhino
10 noise marines, 2 blastmasters, doom siren, rhino

10 chaos bikers, icon of excess, 2 meltas,
Helldrake Baleflamer
Ally Be'lakor with some pink horrors or nurglings
Alternatively you could drop some stuff, maybe the bikers down to spawn, and get your fire raptor in there. Rhinos are there just to sit on objectives or let you fire your blastmasters out of them. Tons of ap3 ignores cover, will tear up some of the MSU marine armies out there.


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To go more aggressive drop noise marines and bikers, get spawn and maybe another deamon prince, deamons, nurgle for shrouding jinking.

@Epartalis
I was messing around with a list very similar to this.

I keep ending up with:

Biker Lord
Sorcer

2 Cult Troops with Rhinos and Havoc Launchers
8-10 Bikers with matching Mark to the HQ
Chaos Fire Raptor w/Reaper Autocannons
Be'lakor
11 Horrors.

It can be done with Nurgle or Slaanesh, but it appears to be the entire list is dedicated to one God.

I'm worried that it is lacking damage potential.

Slaanesh has FNP +1, Iniative, Sound Weapons.
Nurgle has +1 Tough, Meltaguns, Rust and Evil Head Grenades.

Both end up Dead Hard, but the Slaanesh have more Fire Power if they don't move

Abaddon makes cuts and subs Terminators or Zerkers for the bikers with a LR.

The CSM Sorcerer, Be'lakor and Pink will probably only be throwing 2 or 3 spells total depending on the roll. Unless I decide to summon then only 1.

I was kind of expecting more to fit. I feel it is weak unless I am missing something.

Don't Mind The Emperer Lover Filch
I Have Been Player Vannila Chaos Since 4e Praise The Good Days and I am planning to finally get black legion book

Chosen with the right marks and banners are devastating but make sure they get a rhino

And Abbadon Is Always Worth it in combat

For The Legion


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Don't Mind The Emperer Lover Filch
I Have Been Player Vannila Chaos Since 4e Praise The Good Days and I am planning to finally get black legion book

Chosen with the right marks and banners are devastating but make sure they get a rhino

And Abbadon Is Always Worth it in combat

For The Legion

I'm not an avid chaos player, but I can tell you a Black Legion list a player at my local store uses, and wins rather frequently with. It's a bit of an odd list that looks kinda weird on paper, but is actually quite effective and he wins a decent amount with. He uses the Black Legion Supplement. It's roughly as follows.

Lvl 3 Demon Prince: Wings, armor, Tzeentch.
Lvl 3 Demon Prince: Wings, armor, Tzeentch.
5 Chosen: 2 plasma guns, melta gun, flamer. Rhino.
5 Chosen: 2 plasma guns, melta gun, flamer. Rhino.
5 Chosen: 2 plasma guns, melta gun, flamer. Rhino.
5 Chosen: 2 plasma guns, melta gun, flamer. Rhino.
3 Spawn: Nurgle
Helldrake: flamer
Helldrake: flamer
10 cultists

I may be missing something, but that is basically his list. He mixes up the special weapons so he can always be effective. The helldrakes need no explanation. He shoots out the top of rhinos and sits on objectives. He makes one of his chosen sergeants his warlord because apparently black legion allows you to. This allows for him to be all out with his princes and such. It's small but packs a devastating punch.

I feel personally attacked by this guy above me. he has done nothing but bash on my other lists. Also, you dont know the cheese I face buddy. CSM is a weak codex but I am making it work.

SickBag, you can listen to him and have 8 plasmaguns and 4 Meltaguns or you can buy Dark Angels terminators from the Dark Vengeance set cheap and then convert them into the deadly long range obliterators to get as many lascannons or plasma cannons or assault cannons or twin linked plasma and melta guns and flamers and heavy flamers.

If you listen to IRBY but then you dont like it them I highly suggest painting them green to be plague marines. From when I ran chosen, they die like regular marines. Dont forget Votlw tax if you play Black Legion.

I'm not even attacking you man. I told you in your first list most people wouldn't want to play 5 knights in casual and you couldn't handle it. I then made a point here that you admitted to not being able to win and then told him to use your list, like really? It's just the truth. Any chaos list I see win never use obliterators, let alone 9 of them, I mean holy cow that's ineffective. I mean they will never produce up to their points. There's a reason people ran 6-9 oblits in the last codex in every list and now nobody runs them. They are no longer very good. Why would he listen to anything you say when you lose your games and you're just telling him no it sucks because I can't win. Talk about unhelpful advice.

So your friends' Black Legion list can beat your best ork list?

Best bet I've gone for is running heavy obits with mark of tzeetch that i converted from centurians. Chosen are nice, but for the points cost the obits won't go down as easy. Tag them up with four or five man teams of termies loaded with melta or plasma combies in land raiders to hit their key strategic models. A Heldrake is a must if you going against imperial guard or orks, but if facing something like sm's, grey knights, or imperial knights you fast attack bikers with Mark of nurgle are a good addition. The key I've found is keeping the points cost of each unit as close to even as possible that way the enemy has a hard time prioritizing. Or you could just run a khorne heavy army with three champs on bloodcrushers (main attachment and 2 allies all khorne) and just run you troops in to tar pit and pave the way for the champs. In any case I always purchase the dirge caster, way worth the tiny points cost for a close combat army.

 Filch wrote:
So your friends' Black Legion list can beat your best ork list?

It has beaten many lists. There are obviously some lists it won't beat, but it is surprisingly competitive and about the best I've seen Black Legion do, which is what he wants to run.

ImRightBehindYou I like the idea of mixing weapons maybe not to that extreme. More like 3 PG or MG with 1 Flamer.

Also would it be a good idea to add some regular guys to the squad for wounds?

I'll have to look at DP instead of Lords.

I guess that works best with the Black Legion Supplement or you get stuck with regular troops.

Maybe 1 of each.

 Sick Bag wrote:
ImRightBehindYou I like the idea of mixing weapons maybe not to that extreme. More like 3 PG or MG with 1 Flamer.

Also would it be a good idea to add some regular guys to the squad for wounds?

I'll have to look at DP instead of Lords.

I guess that works best with the Black Legion Supplement or you get stuck with regular troops.

Maybe 1 of each.

The reason it works is because no matter where they are on the table, they have the ability to hit a tank, flame some dudes, and put multiple plasma shots on a unit. And again, you can make a sergeant a warlord so you can be reckless with the princes.

Iron Arm Sorceror with Spine shiver blade... It's now AP2 and the sorc has +4 initiative.

The problem or whatever with the damage output in your list is real, it's a very assualt heavy list as it relies on Be'lakor and the chaos lord getting into combat. How awesome is a fire raptor? Never freilded one before, it might give you the firepower you seem to be so short on.

As a side note I do love nurgle oblits. If you go more of a gunline route that's what I would do.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/F/fire-raptor.pdf

200pts plus 10 for the Reaper Auto Cannon upgrade.
AV12 all around
Bolt Cannon 7 S6
4 Misses S8 AP3
2 independent side sponsor TL Reaper Auto Cannon 4 S7 AP4
The sponsor ISS shoot at whatever is in their arc and don't count toward your 4 weapons.

It provides the Air Support that CSM dearly need and it is cheaper than a Storm Raven.

I was hoping for more Heavy Support, but ran out of points.

I could sack the Deamons.

If I do what is recommended for Fire Support?


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What about Havocs?

Or FW tanks?

I don't think havocs are worth it because their loyalist counter parts are so much better as they have ways to get tank hunger for free.

FW tanks, I don't own enough of the imperial armor books to know about.

 ImRightBehindYou wrote:

 Filch wrote:
So your friends' Black Legion list can beat your best ork list?

It has beaten many lists. There are obviously some lists it won't beat, but it is surprisingly competitive and about the best I've seen Black Legion do, which is what he wants to run.

If your friends list cant beat your army then I am not sure how you can stand by recommending it. If that list can win in your environment then I would love to come there and pwn. For the record, 3 more experienced members chimed in to discredit ImRightBehindYou in my IK army list. However that is off topic as his public attack on me.

I have been playing CSM for 6 years. i admit I am not the best and that my win to loss ratio is poor but what do you expect from playing the weakest codex in my environment? Are you going to listen to a guy who has only fought CSM or are you going to a CSM player?

I have tried Chosen spam when Black Legion was published in 2013. The flying daemon princes and heldrake are strong but if the enemy can kill 4 rhinos and 20 marines then say good bye to 720 pts. Killing 4 flyers is hard but killing 4 rhinos and the 20 Marines inside is easy to do. I am trying to let Sick Bag know that I am dissuading him from playing Black Legion because it is a waste of time and money. I do recommend Imperial Armor 13 because he is already looking at it and it is a godsend for CSM.

My suggestions now is if you are not going to save yourself money then go ahead and buy forge world stuff because it is very good.

CAD1 Not Black Legion. Maybe Crimson Slaughter or Vanilla CSM
HQ: 2 sorc and ml3 and spell fam. @125x2=250
1 Take demonology to make him technomancer in order to unlock multiple infernal relics!
troops: 2x10 cultists@100

FA : 3 Hellblades with helstorm autocannons @345 these guys have rending shot!

Heavy: The Fire Raptor gun ship with reaper battery main gun @210
2 sicaran tanks, each with hb sponsons and malefic ammo@195x2=390 these things rend and the main gun ignore jinks!

LoW: Typhon with Armoured Ceramite@370 I cant remember the Legacy that trolls the enemy. It is a d3 of vp if it survives but if enemy kills it they get d3 vp. This thing is big and scary!

All sitting at 1665. I suggest more of cultists to hide and scurry as 4 flyers come in from reserves. Or utilize the elite slot.

@Filch

I like a lot of what you have listed, but worry about a few things.

1. Cultist, I have been screwed too many times by throw away units like them.
2. Does the Hellblade survive with it's AV10?
3. Is the Typhon Heavy Seige Tank commonly on Ban Lists? If not that is the best vehicle I ever seen for it's price.
4. Would a Warpsmith make more sense or do the 2 Sorcers have more use than I am seeing?

I am digging the massive amount of Firepower and Ceramite Armor in this list.

DO I NEED TO BUY THE IMPERIAL ARMOR BOOK FOR CHAOS?

If you consider playing csm in any kind of main army capacity then yes. You WANT to. It's made of awesome.

Hell blades drop as soon as anything looks funny in their direction. Even a 10 man tactical can take it down. But its so cheap for what you get that they are either wasting the same amount of points or more on it, which is good. Or it it will make its points cost back.
They're not a must have or anything but if you need some extra fire power and/or anti air they are worth considering.

 Sick Bag wrote:
@Filch

I like a lot of what you have listed, but worry about a few things.

1. Cultist, I have been screwed too many times by throw away units like them.
2. Does the Hellblade survive with it's AV10?
3. Is the Typhon Heavy Seige Tank commonly on Ban Lists? If not that is the best vehicle I ever seen for it's price.
4. Would a Warpsmith make more sense or do the 2 Sorcers have more use than I am seeing?

I am digging the massive amount of Firepower and Ceramite Armor in this list.

DO I NEED TO BUY THE IMPERIAL ARMOR BOOK FOR CHAOS?

I am glad you asked.

1. If they waste a turn of shooting on 10 cultists then they did their job. You mainly want to hide them out of Line of sight or hide in reserves.
2. What Rokhar said
3. You can check your FLGS or tournament area. If you are already bringing a forge world fire raptor then forge world is allowed.
4. Warp smith is not worth his points trying to repair stuff. The 2 sorcs are there to throw 6 wc dice into summoning and help deny the witch. Also unlock multiple infernal relic. Not great but 125pts to do what a 295 DP is essentially already doing. DP must waste a turn changing flight modes to charge.

Oh and yes you can get armored ceramite on the sicarans and if you really want the fire raptor.

Lmao Filch, I never even said it beat me. I just said it wins games, which you have trouble doing. Besides, how would you be able to pwn anything? Is it optimal, not really, but I'm just commenting on what I've seen. It has troubles with hordes, but it's an elite killer for sure.

Hey knock off the Arguing outside of what does and doesn't work for Chaos.

 Sick Bag wrote:
Hey knock off the Arguing outside of what does and doesn't work for Chaos.

Right. I posted the list I knew that had won some games.

I'm not much one for competitive play, but you want to try abaddon, so you might as well make the most of it. And go with the whole marine hate thing.

1 CAD Black Legion CSM

x1 Abaddon

x10 Terminators
WITH: x10 combi Plasma, x2 Chain Fist, MoK, Icon of Wrath, Bringers of Despair

x1 Spartan Assault tank
WITH: Armoured Ceramite, Dirge Caster, Frag Assault Launcher, Auloth the Primordial Iterator

x1 Typhon Heavy Siege tank

x5 Chosen
WITH: x2 Flamer, x1 Rhino, x1 Havoc Launcher, x1 Missile Launcher
x5 Chosen
WITH: x2 Flamer, x1 Rhino, x1 Havoc Launcher, x1 Missile Launcher

The terminators get preferred enemy and Hatred vs all kinds of marines. That's 20 plasma shots that hit on 2+ re-rollable and wound on 2+ re-rollable AP2. And on the charge it's 32 S7 attacks that are 3+ re-rollable due to hatred and probably wound on 2+ rerollable. And some S9 chain fists in case you run into any mechanized unit. Not to mention the main man to take any challenges. Who also becomes better due to getting furious charge from the icon. So Drach'nyen is S6 and The talon strikes at S9 with shred.

The spartan is immune to melta so should be able to get you the assault, and the frag launchers mean you get to assault at initiative. If you can get close enough the Dirge Caster will protect you from any overwatch. Auloth the primordial means all those terminators now get fear and FNP. Which will help them survive after annihilating whatever they charged. It also gives Abaddon FNP. The spartan also gets pinning on all its weapons, which might be handy if your shooting those lascannons into multi wound infantry, also re-rolling to wound rolls of 1. It also get's fear which is...well...you have it. It works against tank busta orks I guess.

I believe many loyalist death stars rely on psychic power buffs, which will most likely come from a librarian conclave. Which are prone to being evaporated by one shot from the typhon. Which gets to re-roll those 1's if its close enough to abaddon. Without psychic support, that terminator unit is devastating in the assault, if only once able to fire all those plasmas. But if the enemy has such a death star that's likely all you will need. The typhon will do nasty things to any unit though, except maybe MC's and walkers/knights, but those all risk dieing to abaddon before being able to do anything, except for the knight who will be standing on it's last leg.

The chosen can then zoom around in their metal boxes and sit on objectives. They can soften up hordes with 2 blasts at 48", one of which is twinlinked. And should anything get close, they still put two flamer into the unit. Or whittle down multi wound units with the S8 / AP3 profile. On the charge they still get 20 attacks, so they should be able to deal with most normal units trying to grab their objective. or holding another. Objected secured will help with that too.

Outside of marines that termie unit is still very dangerous and not very likely to be tarpitted either. They still get counter attack and abaddon has a daemon weapon and there's a good chance that unit won't be getting any armour save or fnp. Not to mention that you can have the typhon drive alongside them to protect and assist them. And you get a guaranteed damage result on the thunderblitz table if you ever want to crush something to paste. "Only" needing a 5+ to cause further instant death AP2 attacks, which also still benefit from preferred enemy.

You can't be debuffed short of loosing the icon or spartan, bt you have nothing against flyers, except for the odd potshot with lascannons and so on. And if your opponent ever does manage to get invisibilty off on a unit you have to kill, then your basically screwed. But hey, it's a very thematic core unit and its deadly too. and ther are no throw away units and chosen as troops.


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Though you might want to consider taking the havoc launchers of to add armoured ceramite to the typhon too, those two tanks are all you have after all. It means the chosen will be doing even less though.


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Or take it of the spartan and hope you can block los agaisnt the spartan or something like that.


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You could potentially also drop 2 termies for a dark apostle to get hatred everything, but I don't think it's worth it.

Now that sounds like a fun list to play. Less of a flyer spam than the one previously talked about and it does use the best of the black legion codex, as well as terminators which are just fun in my opinion.

Do you the typhoon under standard space marine vehicles on foreworld double for chaos ones? I can't find them on the website.

What about the choas knight and kytan deamon engine of Khorne? Seems pretty cool with a good gun and a sD axe, kinda super pricy though points wise.

Trying to think about an upcoming forgeworld purchase.

Unfortunately, all of the IA13 chaos vehicles are only sold as imperial versions. You have to chaosify them yourself :S. The walkers, including super heavies are all present in a chaos version though. Except for the contemptor...sort of. You get legion versions, some of which would totally pass as chaos with just the odd chain and skull. And the Mhara gal I guess.

The knights and kytan are all pretty cool, but they work better if you can grimoire them. Imagine a re-rollable 2+ invulnerable save on knight lol. And they don't have a massive S10 ignore cover blast. Which is REALLY going to mess up certain units.

Plus they are more expensive and I wanted the chosen to still have some kind of function. They're already pretty bare bones as they are. I don't like having them run around on foot either.

As for purchases, Next on my list was either a fire raptor or a Kharybdis. The rules kind of blow, but the Kit is just pure awesome and dropping 20 man squads in an assault boat without scatter is kind of nice. Though now I might have to add a Chaos Knight as possible purchase lol.

Otherwise I think chaos Sicarans are like some of the best tanks out there lol.

You can run a good slaanesh list
Im running one right now no nurgle in sight


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You can run a good slaanesh list
Im running one right now no nurgle in sight

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
You can run a good slaanesh list
Im running one right now no nurgle in sight


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You can run a good slaanesh list
Im running one right now no nurgle in sight

Care to share it?

 ImRightBehindYou wrote:

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
You can run a good slaanesh list
Im running one right now no nurgle in sight


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You can run a good slaanesh list
Im running one right now no nurgle in sight

Care to share it?

Sure
Chaos Lord of Slaanesh on bike with lightening claw Power fist Sigil of Corruption
6 noise marines 2 additional ccws blast master
6 noise marines 2 additional ccws blast master
6 noise marines 5 sonic blasters 2 lightening claws Rhino
6 chosen mark of slaanesh 5 plasma guns Combi plasma Rhino
6 terminators mark of slaanesh 3 combi plasmas 1 combi flamer 1 combi melta power fist chain fist
5 chaos bikes with Mos icon of Excess 2 melta Guns Combi Melta Melta Bombs
Obliterator with mos
Obliterator with mos

Just under 1500 points but it's pretty decent