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Did a quick search but most topics were pre-6th/7th edition Ork Codex.

Do I get my Big Mek's MFF/KFF saves on my Big Mek Stompas' Power Fields?

Does the KFF protect models?

Is the Big Mek Stompas' Power Field a model?

Yes you do

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Yes you do

Actually you do not. The KFF gives all Models a save. The shield is not a model.

Pretty sure the power field rules says it hits the shield instead of the model.
So a KFF would have no effect.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Yes you do

Actually you do not. The KFF gives all Models a save. The shield is not a model.

State the rule. If I create the shield on my model, is it therefore not a model, part of the model, therefore getting hit?

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Yes you do

Actually you do not. The KFF gives all Models a save. The shield is not a model.

State the rule. If I create the shield on my model, is it therefore not a model, part of the model, therefore getting hit?

Power Fields is a special rule, not a model

The Citadel miniatures used to play games of Warhammer 40,000 are referred to as ‘models’ in the rules that follow. Models represent a huge variety of troops, from noble Space Marines and brutal Orks to Warp-spawned Daemons. To reflect all their differences, each model has its own characteristics profile.
- Models and Units opening paragraph
In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature
- Other Important information, Models and Units

This informs us that there is Rule defined terminology called 'Model,' which will always have their own Characteristic profile and Unit Type. If something does not have their own Characteristics and Unit Type, then they fail to meet the definition of 'Model' and will not be considered a Model as far as the Rules are concerned. This is very annoying as Game Workshop has also used the word model when talking about the plastic miniatures used to play the game, most noticeably in the Terrain section of the book. However, when a Rule specifies Model it is only capable of referring to those things with a Characteristic and a Unit Type, anything lacking these details are can only be described as something other then Models.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Yes you do

Actually you do not. The KFF gives all Models a save. The shield is not a model.

State the rule. If I create the shield on my model, is it therefore not a model, part of the model, therefore getting hit?

That would make it no more of a model than the power sword on my vet sgt, or the bolter on my tac marine.

The marine or guard vet sgt may be a model but his wargear is not a separate model.

To go even further with this i could use a grot orderly, which is an item of wargear oft represented with a separate "model" but never is a model in the unit, doesn't count for either coherency, nor blast/template hits, and cannot be harmed in any way(sure its rules specify all those things but that is truly because it is represented by a common-definition of a model)

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Yes you do

Actually you do not. The KFF gives all Models a save. The shield is not a model.

State the rule. If I create the shield on my model, is it therefore not a model, part of the model, therefore getting hit?

The rule states that models get the save. The shield is not a model since it does not have a unit type...

"In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type..." (Models and Units Chapter, Other Important Information section).

No unit type? then it is not a model.

Yes you would get the save. Here's why.

The powerfield (upgrade) states that when the stompa suffers a penetrating or glancing hit, instead of losing a hull point the power field is destroyed. When you have an invulnerable save you get a chance to block the penetrating or glancing hit. If you fail your save then you lose the power field because a hit was suffered. If the save is made 4++/5++ then you would not lose the power field because no damage was suffered.

you take the save before you worry about the power field so you get the save because the powerfield is a part of the model and the model gets the save. pretty simple really

 Ghazkuul wrote:
you take the save before you worry about the power field

That's not correct.
You take saves after you roll to pen.

You roll to pen against the shield, instead of against the Stompa.

I have been, and will continue to play it as my invulnerable first, until someone can show me a good enough hardcore rule stating why this isn't correct instead of just "no this isn't right"

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I have been, and will continue to play it as my invulnerable first, until someone can show me a good enough hardcore rule stating why this isn't correct instead of just "no this isn't right"

It has been shown. The save is granted to models. Is the Power Field a model? No? Then it does not get the invulnerable save.

 Happyjew wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I have been, and will continue to play it as my invulnerable first, until someone can show me a good enough hardcore rule stating why this isn't correct instead of just "no this isn't right"

It has been shown. The save is granted to models. Is the Power Field a model? No? Then it does not get the invulnerable save.

100% this. The save is granted to models and the Power Field is not a model, as my quote above proves.

The Power Field does not get the invulnerable save.

Ergo, No, you can not take the KFF save for the Power Field.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I have been, and will continue to play it as my invulnerable first, until someone can show me a good enough hardcore rule stating why this isn't correct instead of just "no this isn't right"

It has been shown. The save is granted to models. Is the Power Field a model? No? Then it does not get the invulnerable save.

100% this. The save is granted to models and the Power Field is not a model, as my quote above proves.

The Power Field does not get the invulnerable save.

Ergo, No, you can not take the KFF save for the Power Field.

Except the Powerfield is part of the model. So you resolve the pen against the Power field got it, but the field is still a part of the model and the model still has a 5++ so therefore you still get your save. Show me an actual rule where that isnt true.

As much as I would love for a KFF to protect a power field, it just doesn't look that way.
Invulnerable saves are different to armour saves because they may always be taken whenever the model suffers a Wound or, in the case of vehicles, suffers a penetrating or glancing hit….
Here's how I interpret the sequence of events:

Opponent chooses target.

Rolls to hit.

Persuant to the special rule Power Fields:

Each hit scored against a Big Mek Stompa will instead hit a power field (whilst they remain).

Thus, the shot has been allocated to a non-entity called "power field" with an AV of 12.

Opponent rolls armor penetration.

Each shot with an AP of 12+ will destroy a power field until they are gone. Subsequent shots hit the stompa.

Once the power fields are down, the "model" (ie. the stompa) starts being hit as opposed to the non-entity "power fields."

Since a model is now being hit, it can start receiving invulnerable saves from an outside source.

Invulnerable saves are different to armour saves because they may always be taken whenever the model suffers a Wound or, in the case of vehicles, suffers a penetrating or glancing hit….

The MFF/KFF start to take over providing invulnerable saves.

The bearer, and all models within 6", receive a 5+ invulnerable save against any shooting attacks.

My knee jerk reaction was that the MFF/KFF would encapsulate the stompa and it's accessories, but after some research it doesn't look so promising. Maybe in IA8 they'll clear it up a little.
Doubtful, but we can dream.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I have been, and will continue to play it as my invulnerable first, until someone can show me a good enough hardcore rule stating why this isn't correct instead of just "no this isn't right"

It has been shown. The save is granted to models. Is the Power Field a model? No? Then it does not get the invulnerable save.

100% this. The save is granted to models and the Power Field is not a model, as my quote above proves.

The Power Field does not get the invulnerable save.

Ergo, No, you can not take the KFF save for the Power Field.

Except the Powerfield is part of the model. So you resolve the pen against the Power field got it, but the field is still a part of the model and the model still has a 5++ so therefore you still get your save. Show me an actual rule where that isnt true.

It does not matter if the Power Field is a part of the model, the Power Field is not a model itself, nor is it a vehicle... The model had a 5++, the shield does not. (Unless you have a rules quote that says the shield has a save).

You are only allowed to take the KFF save if you are a model, since only models get the save...

And we know only models get a save "The bearer, and all models within 6", receive a 5+ invulnerable save against any shooting attacks." (KFF rules).

And Invulnerable saves only happen when a vehicle suffers a glancing/pen hit.

"Invulnerable saves are different to armour saves because they may always be taken whenever the model suffers a Wound or, in the case of vehicles, suffers a penetrating or glancing hit…."

So there are your rules that prove the shield does not get a save because the shield is not a vehicle that suffered a penetrating or glancing hit, nor is it a model to even receive a 5+ invulnerable save.

I am curious, using the logic that the Power Filed are allowed an Invulnerability Save as 'Special Rules are part of a Model,' what happens when we change Power Field to the most bizarre non-model entity out there... the Void Shield Projections?

JinxDragon wrote:
I am curious, using the logic that the Power Filed are allowed an Invulnerability Save as 'Special Rules are part of a Model,' what happens when we change Power Field to the most bizarre non-model entity out there... the Void Shield Projections?

I was thinking of bringing up the same variation.

Would the kff have to be in range of the unit protected, or the building profecting it?

If it is in range of the unit, does the whole unit have to be in range(since kff is models in range and void shields are unit)?

No, model is model; special rule from wargear is never model.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I have been, and will continue to play it as my invulnerable first, until someone can show me a good enough hardcore rule stating why this isn't correct instead of just "no this isn't right"

It has been shown. The save is granted to models. Is the Power Field a model? No? Then it does not get the invulnerable save.

100% this. The save is granted to models and the Power Field is not a model, as my quote above proves.

The Power Field does not get the invulnerable save.

Ergo, No, you can not take the KFF save for the Power Field.

Except the Powerfield is part of the model. So you resolve the pen against the Power field got it, but the field is still a part of the model and the model still has a 5++ so therefore you still get your save. Show me an actual rule where that isnt true.

It does not matter if the Power Field is a part of the model, the Power Field is not a model itself, nor is it a vehicle... The model had a 5++, the shield does not. (Unless you have a rules quote that says the shield has a save).

You are only allowed to take the KFF save if you are a model, since only models get the save...

And we know only models get a save "The bearer, and all models within 6", receive a 5+ invulnerable save against any shooting attacks." (KFF rules).

And Invulnerable saves only happen when a vehicle suffers a glancing/pen hit.

"Invulnerable saves are different to armour saves because they may always be taken whenever the model suffers a Wound or, in the case of vehicles, suffers a penetrating or glancing hit…."

So there are your rules that prove the shield does not get a save because the shield is not a vehicle that suffered a penetrating or glancing hit, nor is it a model to even receive a 5+ invulnerable save.

and yet you can't show me any actual rule that says you can't take the save. The Power field is a part of the model and gets the save because your not shooting at a power field your shooting at a model that has a power field. I don't own a model with power fields but if I did that is how I would play it because it makes complete sense. Its basically two protective layers wrapped around one another.

So continue to say the same thing over and over again but until GW tells us otherwise I would take the 5++ save before the shield gets hit.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
and yet you can't show me any actual rule that says you can't take the save. The Power field is a part of the model and gets the save because your not shooting at a power field your shooting at a model that has a power field. I don't own a model with power fields but if I did that is how I would play it because it makes complete sense. Its basically two protective layers wrapped around one another.

So continue to say the same thing over and over again but until GW tells us otherwise I would take the 5++ save before the shield gets hit.

Simple question. Is the Power FIeld a model or a special rule?

Ghazkuul,
Why are we required to show a Rule forbidding Special Rules from taking take saves, instead of you providing us with a Rule showing that Special Rules are allowed Saves?

Yet again i am in agreement with jinx; we have shown what is defined as a model, wargear and special rules provided by a model are not under that definition: so the onus is on anyone else the prove that the special rule does get protected since there is no current permission(in this permissive ruleset)

Compare with other similar situations.

The void shield generator has the same rule I think.
When shooting boys protected by a VSG , does the hit on the shield got a save ?

 Ghazkuul wrote:



and yet you can't show me any actual rule that says you can't take the save...

The rules don't say I can't place my models back on the board after you've killed them and use them next turn, but that doesn't mean I can do it.

The rules system is permissive: this means you may only do things you are expressly allowed to do. You are not allowed to do anything else.