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Icon of Old Caliban: Friendly units with the Dark Angels Faction within 6" of one or more Ravenwing Darkshrouds gain the Fear and Stealth special rules (though this does not affect the Darkshrouds themselves). Furthermore, enemy units cannot fire Overwatch at friendly units with the Dark Angels Faction that are within 6" of one or more Ravenwing Darkshrouds at the start of the Assault phase.

How would the Icon of Caliban work if a unit within 6" of the Darkshroud contained models from multiple factions?

Specifically in this situation I am thinking of Sammael with a Ravenwing Command Squad which has been joined by TWC Lords/Battle Leaders/Iron Priests. My interpretation would be that as long as any model in the unit, DA or SW, were with 6" all the DA models would get Stealth but none of the SW would. Though I do not know how the "no over watch" rule would work should the entire unit charge as one.

Any help greatly appreciated.

This is a variation on the old 'who Joins who' debate that pops up here from time to time, which is very interesting to say the least.

Keeping to the subject matter at hand, there are far more 'questionable Joins' then this one, we will begin by reading the Rules explaining how Factions work. Within them we are informed that Units have factions, so this is something I call a 'Unit-Level' Rule as it interacts with directly the Unit as a whole and not the Models within. When we couple this with the Rules for Independent Characters joining other Units, which inform us that the Independent Character is a member of the Unit they join for all Rule Purposes, we start to see why the answer is what it is.

If the Independent Character, belonging to a Unit with the Faction of Space Wolves, joins to a Unit of Dark Angels the resulting 'Mixed Unit' will still have the faction of 'Dark Angel' as that is the Faction listed on the Unit's Datasheet.

 C4PTUR3 wrote:

Icon of Old Caliban: Friendly units with the Dark Angels Faction within 6" of one or more Ravenwing Darkshrouds gain the Fear and Stealth special rules (though this does not affect the Darkshrouds themselves). Furthermore, enemy units cannot fire Overwatch at friendly units with the Dark Angels Faction that are within 6" of one or more Ravenwing Darkshrouds at the start of the Assault phase.

How would the Icon of Caliban work if a unit within 6" of the Darkshroud contained models from multiple factions?

Specifically in this situation I am thinking of Sammael with a Ravenwing Command Squad which has been joined by TWC Lords/Battle Leaders/Iron Priests. My interpretation would be that as long as any model in the unit, DA or SW, were with 6" all the DA models would get Stealth but none of the SW would. Though I do not know how the "no over watch" rule would work should the entire unit charge as one.

Any help greatly appreciated.

A unit has a faction as determined by its datasheet. If a model joins that unit the unit's faction does not change. Individual models do not have factions so when an Iron Hands model, for example, joins a Ravenwing squad then the Iron Hands unit the Iron Hands model was a port of is effective discounted from a rules point of view with a handful of exceptions explained in detail in the independent character rules.

In your example all models, including the SW models, would be members of a DA unit. The Darkshroud is only looking for DA units, not DA models so they would all get Stealth.

Now, on the flip side, if a DA model joins a SW unit, no matter how close to a Darkshroud this unit got, or even if the DA model was 3" from the Darkshroud none of the models in this unit would get stealth becouse this is a SW units and not a DA unit.

This was answered pretty conclusively in this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/655561.page

When an IC joins a unit of another faction, it remains that other faction and only that other faction.

This may be a dangerous question, but now i'm curious.
What if an IC joins an IC from a different faction? What is the resulting faction?

axisofentropy wrote:
This was answered pretty conclusively in this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/655561.page

When an IC joins a unit of another faction, it remains that other faction and only that other faction.

Thanks you for the link, that was exactly what I needed. I did have a look back through the section before posting but must have missed it.

Spoletta,
Joining is a one way process, dependant on which Independent Character moved into coherency with the other.

Spoletta wrote:
This may be a dangerous question, but now i'm curious.
What if an IC joins an IC from a different faction? What is the resulting faction?

The unit's faction does not change. It keeps its original faction, the IC does not change it. This comes from a close reading of the IC rules.

JinxDragon wrote:
Spoletta,
Joining is a one way process, dependant on which Independent Character moved into coherency with the other.

You have to declare it.

In order to join a unit, an Independent Character simply has to move so that he is within the 2" unit coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their Movement phase. If the Independent Character is within 2" of more than one unit at the end of its Movement phase, the player must declare which unit it is joining. If an Independent Character does not intend to (or cannot) join a unit, it must (where possible) remain more than 2" away from it at the end of the Movement phase. This is to make clear whether they have joined a unit or not. Note that, after an Independent Character joins a unit, that unit can move no further that Movement phase.
- Joining and Leaving a Unit

As we can see with the above Rule Quote, the only time you need to declare which Unit is being joined is when you move within 2 inches of two or more Units. If you move within 2 inches of a single Unit, such as another Independent Character Unit, no declaration is needed. It is clearly the act of moving within 2 inches that begins the Joining process, so the key element is still which Independent Character moved into coherency with which. Technically though, the part requiring Independent Characters to remain 2 inches away from any Unit they do not intend to join is also problematic. The second Independent Character, who is the party being joined and therefore isn't doing any joining of their own, must still remain 2 inches away from the Independent Character joining them which puts the first Independent Character outside of coherency and unable to Join.

We could, technically, state that the second Independent Character also "intended to join" but was simply prevented when the Unit vanishing and they suddenly gained an extra member into their own....

On a side note, I always find this to be interesting:
An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in Reserve, by you informing your opponent of which unit it has joined.
- Same Section
An Independent Character cannot leave a unit while either he or the unit is in Reserves, locked in combat, Falling Back or has Gone to Ground. He cannot join a unit that is in Reserves, locked in combat or Falling Back. If an Independent Character joins a unit, and all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase.
- Same Section
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together
- Combined Reserve Units

Notice how Combined Reserve Units states the Independent Character is already in reserves when this declaration happens?
Notice how a Independent Character is forbidden from Joining a Unit if they are already in Reserves?
Let that sit in your mind for a few moments, and enjoy the madness that it can bring!

Now we could explain all this away on a technicality, they go into Reserves already Joined and get around the restriction that was clearly made for things line ongoing Reserves or to prevent Joining after your opponent deploys their forces when they go second, but this is yet another technicality used to fix a single poorly written Rule. It would also require us to ignore the timing put forth within the Combined Reserve Unit Rule as some sort of error and we are meant to declare this prior to placing any Units into Reserves. Given the poor interaction between the default Reserve Rules and anything that modify said Reserve Rules, such an error isn't even surprising at this point. Seriously... take a look at the Deep Strike threads for more examples of broken Reserve situations.

However, I concur from a How I Would Play It view-point:
Simply declare they are joining before moving them into coherency with their new Unit, Independent Character or otherwise.
If you intend to put them into Reserves at the start of the game, declare they are already Joined before placing them into Reserves.

much like the new rules for CT by the RAW the unit would not benefit, as it is not a dark angels unit at the point a model with a non dark angels faction is part of the unit. It is now a dark angels+whatever unit.

HIWPI- the dark angel faction models get the bonus, the other models do not.

HIWPI against someone who insisted all rules purposes means the faction of the unit as well- the IC changes factions, since you believe joining an unit changes you to that unit for all rules purposes. The IC also loses its dataslate entry name, unit profile, gear, and special rules, and now has those of a single model from the unit it joined since those are rules purposes. In this case now tactical marine. enjoy your 1W boltgun wielding overcosted IC. If that is the RAW we are both correct.

blaktoof wrote:
much like the new rules for CT by the RAW the unit would not benefit, as it is not a dark angels unit at the point a model with a non dark angels faction is part of the unit. It is now a dark angels+whatever unit.

Except that the new CT rules have nothing to do with factions. If it was related, tell me... what faction would a DA unit with an Inquisitor be? If you were to use the CT rules as a guide, they'd neither be DA or Inq, but something else entirely that's undefined.

HIWPI- the dark angel faction models get the bonus, the other models do not.

That's fair, but...

HIWPI against someone who insisted all rules purposes means the faction of the unit as well- the IC changes factions, since you believe joining an unit changes you to that unit for all rules purposes. The IC also loses its dataslate entry name, unit profile, gear, and special rules, and now has those of a single model from the unit it joined since those are rules purposes. In this case now tactical marine. enjoy your 1W boltgun wielding overcosted IC. If that is the RAW we are both correct.

...lolwut. How is that a RAW interpretation? What rule states that they change to that unit? (Trick question: none do, they tell you to treat them as being part of the unit for all rule purposes)
I don't see how you can even try to call that a RAW interpretation. What rule says all models in a Tactical Squad must be Tactical Marines? (if I'm being picky... "Tactical Marine" isn't a model name, "Space Marine" is) So Tactical Squads no longer have Sergeants now?

For a second let's assume this is a correct interpretation RAW, what happens if an IC joins a squad consisting of multiple model types (like, say, a BT Crusader Squad with 5 Initiates, 5 Neophytes and a Sword Brother)? What model does he become? We aren't told to choose a model, and we aren't told which model they turn into. Game breaks.

Sure, play it as you wish but don't claim it's RAW or actually playable in the slightest without making more rules up...

Rules cover how a Unit's Datasheet is read, do they not?
I've always had a problem with the whole 'For All Rule Purpose' Clause, because it can open the door for such interpretations.

It would have been far better for the Authors to give us a list of which Rule they count for, or the exceptions if that was a shorter list for them to create. It isn't that difficult either, as they did it for Buildings: When determining if a building can be targeted by a shooting attack or psychic power, charged and fought in close combat, or affected by a special rule, treat the building as a vehicle unless specifically stated otherwise. That covers virtually every situation where you would be interacting with the Building but still prevents the building from being a Vehicle by default. Now imagine if they stated that an Independent Character was a member of the joined unit for the exact same purposes but added one or two more, such as determining coherency.

Wouldn't that be a lot cleaner then 'all Rule Purposes?'

You're making it way overly complicated.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
much like the new rules for CT by the RAW the unit would not benefit, as it is not a dark angels unit at the point a model with a non dark angels faction is part of the unit. It is now a dark angels+whatever unit.

Except that the new CT rules have nothing to do with factions. If it was related, tell me... what faction would a DA unit with an Inquisitor be? If you were to use the CT rules as a guide, they'd neither be DA or Inq, but something else entirely that's undefined.

HIWPI- the dark angel faction models get the bonus, the other models do not.

That's fair, but...

HIWPI against someone who insisted all rules purposes means the faction of the unit as well- the IC changes factions, since you believe joining an unit changes you to that unit for all rules purposes. The IC also loses its dataslate entry name, unit profile, gear, and special rules, and now has those of a single model from the unit it joined since those are rules purposes. In this case now tactical marine. enjoy your 1W boltgun wielding overcosted IC. If that is the RAW we are both correct.

...lolwut. How is that a RAW interpretation? What rule states that they change to that unit? (Trick question: none do, they tell you to treat them as being part of the unit for all rule purposes)
I don't see how you can even try to call that a RAW interpretation. What rule says all models in a Tactical Squad must be Tactical Marines? (if I'm being picky... "Tactical Marine" isn't a model name, "Space Marine" is) So Tactical Squads no longer have Sergeants now?

For a second let's assume this is a correct interpretation RAW, what happens if an IC joins a squad consisting of multiple model types (like, say, a BT Crusader Squad with 5 Initiates, 5 Neophytes and a Sword Brother)? What model does he become? We aren't told to choose a model, and we aren't told which model they turn into. Game breaks.

Sure, play it as you wish but don't claim it's RAW or actually playable in the slightest without making more rules up...

I agree with the lolwhut

However claiming an unit from one datasheet takes on property of an unit from another datasheet, in this case the attribute 'faction'. has the same rules basis as claiming an unit takes on any property of another units datasheet. Which is the point. Anyone claiming an IC joined to an unit is now a model of that units faction [if different than the models faction] is making the same 'lol wut' claim. Models do not lose their faction, formation, detachment, or datasheet entry properties when joined together. We know this because we are never told they gain those properties of an unit they join, or replace theirs with that of the unit they join, so they must keep there own as that is all they had.

Blaktoof,
All units belong to one of the many Factions that are fighting in the 41st Millennium.
- Factions, opening sentence

The Rules for Factions are what I call a 'Unit Level Rule,' in that they interact with the Unit regardless of the members that make up said Unit. This is why they need to remove the 'For All Rule Purpose' clause and replace it with a list, as it does strip away our permission to use anything from the original Unit when it comes to a 'joined' Independent Character. Accept that there is no way to 'fix' this from a Rule as Written perspective as the poorly written clause is the problem. If you want to House Rule it that Models have Factions then by all means do so but keep flagging it as that... a house Rule.

JinxDragon wrote:
Blaktoof,
All units belong to one of the many Factions that are fighting in the 41st Millennium.
- Factions, opening sentence

The Rules for Factions are what I call a 'Unit Level Rule,' in that they interact with the Unit regardless of the members that make up said Unit. This is why they need to remove the 'For All Rule Purpose' clause and replace it with a list, as it does strip away our permission to use anything from the original Unit when it comes to a 'joined' Independent Character. Accept that there is no way to 'fix' this from a Rule as Written perspective as the poorly written clause is the problem. If you want to House Rule it that Models have Factions then by all means do so but keep flagging it as that... a house Rule.

I agree with you that faction is an unit level rule.

However when you have two units: an IC with faction X, and a tactical squad with faction Y, and join the IC to the unit, the IC is said to "count as a member of the unit for all purposes".

However most people can agree that other rules conflict here, ie the IC does not change to that units detachment/formation, the IC is not actually from that units datasheet it is still from its own datasheet.

Mainly because we are told that models belong to their detachment at a certain point, and that they cannot belong to more than one. Furthering this, there are no rules that allow models to change detachments/formations or gain more than one. So we know when an IC joins an unit, it does not change factions or count as both- because no rule tells us they do or how this happens[ i.e. do they count as being from both detachments? do they count as being from the unit joined to detachment and not there own? no rule tells us either]

Although faction is not the same rule as detachment/formation it is an identity from the datasheet for that unit entry, and if an IC has a different faction than the unit it joins there is no rule telling us what happens to that ICs faction property.

So yes it may be a unit level rule, but on a unit level the unit is now not a dark angels unit, because we have no rule telling us we can ignore the ICs faction and use the units faction. Counting as a member of the unit for rules purposes does not tell us to ignore the models rules when it joins the unit.

in the case of the dark shroud, it does not say units that contain at least one model with the dark angel faction, it says units of dark angels. Is that a unit made of dark angels? yes, as rules as writen it does not given an option for other factions or the possibility of non dark angels models by saying anything to the effect of if the unit contains a model with dark angels faction.

not even considering that there are further implications, like joining units together means faction does not matter as long as the models are allowed to join the unit. IE if an IC from faction X is allowed to join unit with faction Y, then IC with faction Z could join unit Y regardless of faction relationship of unit X and Z, because we are saying faction X does not exist with any model in the unit when joined to Y, which is not an actual rule anywhere.

Do you have any Rules telling us how to determine the Faction of a Unit, aside from looking on the Datasheet for that Unit?

I keep asking you to quote Rules and you keep putting forth texts to 'explain how this Rule would work' without showing us the Rule! Yet, In order to prove that the old Unit details do not matter all we need to do is point to that broken clause that I dispose so much: he counts as part of the (joined) unit for all rules purposes. Even your attempt as misdirection is weak, because this clause triggers after the Model has 'joined' and we have a Restrictions telling us that joining can not begin in the first place unless certain Fraction requirements are first met.

So I ask again:
Quote an actual Rule for me, underline it so I can easily see it and then find it in the book to verify for myself!