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I am participating in a campaign at my FLGS, and I have a game this Sunday against an Eldar army.

The only thing I know about my opponent's army is 1. it is completely composed of jetbikes, skimmers, flyers, and/or jump infantry (and possibly a Wraithknight if it is a Jump Gargantuan Creature) and 2. it's about 1730 points.

As it is a campaign I have no choice to change my list. It was made by the GM for the campaign as a 'not what you would normally see' list, so it is weird and kinda not good plus it is only 1500 pts.

Lucius the Eternal

Dark Apostle - MoS, Bike, Murder Sword

Terminators x5 - MoS, Icon of Excess (IoE), Reaper Autocannon, chainfist

Noise Marines x10 - Doom Siren, Blastmaster, 8x Sonic Blaster, IoE

Chaos Space Marines x10 - MoS, IoE, Lascannon, Meltagun, VotLW

Chaos Space Marines x10 - MoS, IoE, Missile Launcher, Plasma Gun, VotLW

Chaos Bikes x3 - MoS, IoE, Meltagun x2, VotLW


On the upside I have 30 power armoured bodies with Objective Secure and FNP, some AP3 Ignores Cover weaponry, and I will be able to push away from Maelstrom missions, and influence the terrain a bit.

On the downside about 300-400 out of 1500 points is spent on MoS and IoE, and I have squat for mobility.

So what do y'all suggest for tactics here?

Convert each marine into noise marines.

You want to spam as many blast masters into multiple small units or 10 men squads with IoE.

either 5 noise marines with 1 blast master
or 10 noise marines with 2 blast masters and IoE

Blast masters are S8 thereby instant deathing t4 to deny fnp Jetbikes and the ap3 pierces their 3+ armor. And it ignores cover! All at 48" so if jet bikes can shoot you, and scuttle away, they would still be in range.

Under 7th ed, does ignore cover also ignore jinks?

Also dont waste points on lucius. You can get a better lord for less points.

Possibly Bulk up the bike squad to 10 max to milk IoE.
also get 1 more terminator so you can split into 2x3 and have 2nd reaper auto ac. the problem with 36" is that jet bikes get to move into range and then shoot and move out of range.

also havocs with heavy bolters help but jet bikes can still dance out of range. Autocannons have 48" but lack in shots and ap to hurt jet bikes, but if he brings raiders and other transports then the autocannons really shine past those night shields.

How'd you get a Bike for your Apostle?

Ignores cover absolutely ignores jink, and he mentioned he has no choice to change his list. So most of your advice wont help him, sadly... (and looking at the matchup he's going to have, i dont know if the dice gods can either.)

I honestly think the csm book is the worst matchup against cwe possible. Even with an optimized list.. It doesnt seem like one would have much of a chance of actually winning. It needs updating so badly, i can smell the staleness upon just opening the csm book. That being said, noise marines are a good choice against skimmers and bikes. It is a shame you cant replace the normal csm with noise marines, i think you would have a much better chance in that scenario.

I cant really offer much tactical advice, mostly because i know i would feel helpless against eldar if i was forced to run that list. I wish you the best of luck and even if you dont win I hope you enjoy the game.

Your GM does not like you very much by constraining you to such a horrible set up while letting that eldar player have scatbike spam. I am sorry for you.

wait. If its a "lists you dont usually see" Saim Hain eldar are very popular, bikes are very popular, however your list is not popular, so thats kinda stupid.

Like slaneesh CSM is not popular for good reason, its not that good, and this list is complete crap. Frankly, if I was you, I just wouldn't participate in the campaign if it will be like this.

but if you had to use the list, use the noise marines to focus fire on the biggest unit of jetbikes that he has, and probably kill it flat out. Then try to charge the other jetbike units with the CSM units, and use the bikes to take objectives.

Basically just get into combat with the bikes, and call it a day.

It is just not fair for FKaos. I would argue with your GM for gimping you so hard.

Your going to have a ridiculously hard time and your not going to win any normal game.

Your noise marines are going to be your most important by a long shot. So put that dark apostle in the noise marines for no other reason than to tank wounds and counter charge, or absorb overwatch. Its going to be almost useless anyway. At least it has a 4++ and feel no pain this way so it can eat a wound or two. Hell maybe even use lucius to soak wounds.

You can't do squat about the wraithknight either unless he also allows the murdersword to activate against it. On the the turn you try to charge, put some melta from the bikes into it and the blast master and pray to the dark gods.

Walk the termies up a flank and try to protect the autocannon, before the chain fist.
And those marines?..pff...I dunno lol charge when you can and get objectives? Try to spread them out as you move forward and remember you can stand still with the heavy weapons as the rest walk up.

Noise Marines are actually one of the worst counters against Scatterbikes. While ignoring cover is good on most targets, you WANT to force jinking on the bikes, as otherwise they'll return more firepower the next turn.

Well, they can't return much when they're dead . With the list he was given, the blast master is still going to be his best bet on single frequency. And they're not fearless either (?) , so he has a chance to pin them at least.

He's already behind in points, so there will probably still be ample opportunity to make them jink with the csm and bikes.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How'd you get a Bike for your Apostle?

GM made the list, so I'm just gonna roll with it. It's not like it makes him OP, or even very good.

 Filch wrote:
Your GM does not like you very much by constraining you to such a horrible set up while letting that eldar player have scatbike spam. I am sorry for you.

The Eldar list was made mostly before the new codex so he should be stuck with 1 in 3 with scatter lasers. The lists on this planet are ones the GM made for each faction so that people would have games in the first couple campaign turns while our real forces have to come towards the center of the system before they get stuck in. So yeah it's a funky list, and even if the Eldar list isn't funky (it could be all swooping hawks for all I really know) this game doesn't matter much in the overall scheme of the campaign.

Roknar wrote:
Your going to have a ridiculously hard time and your not going to win any normal game.

Your noise marines are going to be your most important by a long shot. So put that dark apostle in the noise marines for no other reason than to tank wounds and counter charge, or absorb overwatch. Its going to be almost useless anyway. At least it has a 4++ and feel no pain this way so it can eat a wound or two. Hell maybe even use lucius to soak wounds.

You can't do squat about the wraithknight either unless he also allows the murdersword to activate against it. On the the turn you try to charge, put some melta from the bikes into it and the blast master and pray to the dark gods.

Walk the termies up a flank and try to protect the autocannon, before the chain fist.
And those marines?..pff...I dunno lol charge when you can and get objectives? Try to spread them out as you move forward and remember you can stand still with the heavy weapons as the rest walk up.

If the Dark Apostle can Murdersword a WraithKnight I won't even care if I get tabled immediately after. Totally worth it. And I figure since the Dark Apostle has an illegal bike I might as well run him with the bikers since this will be his only chance to go fast.

Would it be worth it to DS the Terminators? It gives me a little extra mobility, but it also takes one of my few AT guns & ~20% of my army off the table for up to 3 turns.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Noise Marines are actually one of the worst counters against Scatterbikes. While ignoring cover is good on most targets, you WANT to force jinking on the bikes, as otherwise they'll return more firepower the next turn.

I am sorry but that makes no sense to me.

Blast master is Str8 and Ap3 and ignores cover at 48". That means no fnp and no armor saves and no jink saves. Unless the squad gets a psychic power therby buffing their armor saves to a 2+ or or Toughness 5 or given an invul save then a dead biker is better than a snap shotting biker.

I guess putting the apostle with the bikers might take some heat of the noise marines too, but then you probably should put Lucius in with the noise marines. It's not like he has the means to move around anyway.

With only the 5 termies with bolters? They won't do much when they land...if they land. At least if they walk up they can use that reaper autocannon for a turn or two.
Maybe if he brings dark reapers it could be worth Deepstriking. You would want to get rid of those fast, since they are AP 3 ignore cover due to barrage IIRC. Anything along those lines would make deepstriking worth it. If he moves them or shoots at the termies, then they did their job.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Filch wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Noise Marines are actually one of the worst counters against Scatterbikes. While ignoring cover is good on most targets, you WANT to force jinking on the bikes, as otherwise they'll return more firepower the next turn.

I am sorry but that makes no sense to me.

Blast master is Str8 and Ap3 and ignores cover at 48". That means no fnp and no armor saves and no jink saves. Unless the squad gets a psychic power therby buffing their armor saves to a 2+ or or Toughness 5 or given an invul save then a dead biker is better than a snap shotting biker.

He won't jink vs noise marines. They are either AP 4/5 or the bikes gain nothing from jinking. The other units (here), bar terminators, have AP3 without ignore cover, so that might cause the entire unit to jink, vs loosing maybe one model from the blast master if they are spread out.
So making them jink is favorable as he doesn't have the fire power to wipe them out. This is assuming the opponent isn't bundling the bikes ofc. It's easier to force a jink than relying on a pin from the blast master.
If the opponent is bundling the bikers and there is a small unit, than a lucky blast master plate could wipe out the entire unit though.

You could always force the jink by shooting with one of the regular CSM squads, he jinks, now shoot him with the Noise Marines and all those cover ignoring weapons for the lulz... I love to do stuff like that.... Like charging with a crap unit to eat up overwatch then have a better unit charge right after... You'd be surprised how many people fall for that.

 KhorneontheCobb wrote:
You could always force the jink by shooting with one of the regular CSM squads, he jinks, now shoot him with the Noise Marines and all those cover ignoring weapons for the lulz... I love to do stuff like that.... Like charging with a crap unit to eat up overwatch then have a better unit charge right after... You'd be surprised how many people fall for that.

But you should always overwatch in that situation! Because once you're locked in melee you can no longer overwatch if another unit joins the fight.
That's tactically sound, but not really that lulzy.