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Hi all
So I was playing as BA against Necrons last night and found myself in a situation where my stormraven was unable to target anything of value. Therefore I chose to zoom 18" then use the techmarine embarked to repair a hull point on the raven and then go flat out thus leaving the board with the raven. My opponent claimed that I can't use the techmarine to repair and then go flat out. But I cant see anything against this, the repair is done in the shooting phase but is done instead of shooting and the only restriction I can see on flat out is that you do it instead of shooting.
What do you think ?

The concern is likely to be this Rule:
They cannot fire if the vehicle moves Flat Out or uses smoke launchers that turn, nor can a vehicle move Flat Out or use smoke launchers if a unit embarked inside it shoots out.
- Fire Points

Sadly, all Game Workshop Rules are written to only ever account for the most simple of interactions that may be encountered within said Rule. This means the above does not cover the possibility of doing something instead of shooting, and how it would restrict the Vehicle's movement after that 'instead of' action was taken. It does heavily suggest that any action done instead of shooting a weapon would also forbid the Flat Out afterwards, even if it doesn't literally state that, thus many players are going to interpret it that way. I do not fault them either, for if you are forbidden from shooting it is difficult to justify doing an action 'instead of shooting' and this Rule clearly forbids the Embarked Unit from shooting if their Transport has moved Flat Out.

Thanks for the response
I do agree with both arguments however I am trying to find something in the rules to confirm it one way or the other(I know this is always going to be tricky with GW). The fire points rule is pretty close but as the stormraven doesn't have any fire points it negates it for me. Another example could be if a techmarine moves into base contact with a rhino and then fixes it in his shooting phase could the rhino then choose to go flat out in its shooting phase? There probably should be seperate restrictions for repairing while embarked but I cant seem to find any.
Any other thoughts?

What you are looking for is unlikely to ever be addressed thanks to the 'vacuum effect,' where Rules are written to account for only the most basic of interactions, and Game Workshop's inability to reply to Frequently Asked Questions. This is the worse thing about Game Workshop Rules, as the company believes it is up to your opponent and yourself to fix any errors that may have been written into their Rules. As the eons move on, it becomes more and more obvious that 'The Most Important Rule' is going to be the primary solution to correcting the error within their Rule-sets, as opposed to the Authors actually fixing their damn Rules!

My solution would be to simply ask yourself these two questions:
Do you honestly believe a Restriction, that has the duration of 'that Turn,' can be by-passed simply by ensuring the forbidden action is first in the Sequence?
Would any of your opponents be comfortable if you out-right informed them that you are using Sequencing to bypass a Turn-wide Restriction?

End of day, it is your opponents you need to convince and not this Forum.

JinxDragon wrote:
My solution would be to simply ask yourself these two questions:
Do you honestly believe a Restriction, that has the duration of 'that Turn,' can be by-passed simply by ensuring the forbidden action is first in the Sequence?
Would any of your opponents be comfortable if you out-right informed them that you are using Sequencing to bypass a Turn-wide Restriction? .

That's only part of the issue, though.

If you're going to claim that the Techmarine can't use BotO because the vehicle moving flat out prevents him from shooting, then the same reasoning leaves him unable to ever use BotO while embarked in a Stormraven anyway - Since it has no Fire Points, he can never shoot while embarked.

But then you follow that logic further, and a Techmarine would also be unable to repair a vehicle if he has no enemies in LOS, or if he left his bolter at home... And by this point, we're well and truly visiting Camelot.


This is the problem with 'instead of shooting' abilities. There has always been argument over whether or not actually being permitted to shoot is a requirement to use them, or if the fact that the model is not shooting is sufficient to satisfy the rule.

Completely agreed, the bigger issue of 'can you use these abilities if you can not shoot?' is far more problematic....
More and more I lean towards 'Yes, yes you can.'

JinxDragon wrote:
Completely agreed, the bigger issue of 'can you use these abilities if you can not shoot?' is far more problematic....
More and more I lean towards 'Yes, yes you can.'

I am a little confused, are you saying you have changed your mind on your original verdict?

My original 'verdict' was to talk to your opponent, as the Rules are far to simplistic to account for the Rule Interaction being put forth.

I am agreeing with Insanak because there is a much larger problem then the one being addressed:
Can any 'instead of' ability be used when you are forbidden from doing the original action?

Regardless of how you answer that question there is always going to be examples of unusual outcomes occurring....

Fair enough, we did agree at the time that both interpretations made sense and rolled on it and I didnt get my hp. I guess its just one of those rules that will never be clear.

Thanks for you help anyway JinxDragon :-)

Well if you can't do something instead of shooting when you can' shoot, I guess any model without a ranged weapon can't Run.