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Not meant to be a competitive list, but I'll take any suggestions or opinions.

1 CAD Generic CSM

x1 Chaos Lord
WITH: Sigil, MoK, Juggernaut, AoBF, melta bombs, gif of mutation and VotLW

x10 Bikers
WITH: x2 Melta, x1 Melta Bomb, MoK, Icon of Wrath, VotLW

x1 Storm Eagle
WITH: x1 Twin Multimelta, x2 Twin Lascannon
x1 Storm Eagle
WITH: x1 Twin Multimelta, x2 Twin Lascannon

x1 Mauler Fiend
x1 Mauler Fiend

x10 Chaos space marines
WITH: Rhino, x1 Plasma Gun, x1 Missile Launcher
x10 Chaos space marines
WITH: Rhino, x1 Plasma Gun, x1 Missile Launcher

x2 Rapier battery
WITH: x2 Cyclotrathe Conversion beamer.

The Lord runs with the bikers for the furious charge. Two Maulerfiends to provide some distraction.

The CSM sit on objectives taking potshots at MC light-medium vehicles or hordes.
The rapier batteries take out high priority targets

The Eagles should be able to deal with any flying units, or in their absence, hordes or vehicles.
In maelstrom, the lord/bikers or eagles might split of to get an objective if necessary.

I was considering to take the mutation and use those for dirgecasters on the eagles to help the lord a bit. The votLW is more for fluffyness than anything else. I'd like to keep those if possible.

I would take the missle launchers off of those CSM... They're heavy weapons- so, they're either slowing down the rest of the unit, or they can't shoot... I would replace with a second plasma. Then you can do driveby's with those S7 AP2 rapid fire plasma guns out of them rhinos. ... That would free up points for them Dirgecasters too.

That's why I put them in the rhino. I don't expect them to be moving an awful lot. As long as they don't move, they get to shoot twice as far, with S8 no less.
But I don't really have much experience with units sitting on objectives like this. Usually I put rapiers or havocs and the like on my back field objectives and if an objective appears somewhere else I split off with bikes to get them.
These would be something in between, so I'm not sure if not moving them would make sense. All the other units are pretty fast already, so they should be able to get ojectives early on.

Exchanging them with plasma would work too though, jsut not as long range then. Makes them more mobile though. But they actually cost the same as a plasma gun so I wouldn't gain any more points.

I'm bit worried that making them mobile with 2 plasmas would make it more difficult to get my back field objectives.

That's right.. I always calculate the missles in my head as having flak.

I suppose you could swap the plasma for melta.. Get those points for dirge casters and you're deadlier in close. Plus don't have to worry about him blowing himself up due to "gets hot".

I guess I could change them depending on what type of game I would be playing.

Keep the missile launcher/plasma fro maelstrom and go either double plasma or mix in some melta to get the dirge casters on the rhinos and then drive them up with the rest of the army in non maelstrom games? Assuming I know beforehand at least., which is the case in our group.

VotLW is wasted points even when facing Space Marines. That easily saves you a bunch of points there.

That's why I said I like I took it for fluff reasons.
But let's justt assume I'd remove that, what would you spend it on?

Two versions, because I could more easily stomach loosing it on the bikers. That's 10 points since veterans is really cheap on bikers at only 1 point. But the champ doesn't have a weapon and the lord gives them fearless, so its not that big of a loss.
Although 40 attacks re-rollable against marines is worth 10 points to me, even if it only kills like 1, maybe two more.

The other version I would be less inclined to do, but that would be to remove it entirely, so 15 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I suppose you would take the gift and VotLW for a powerfist on the champ?

I dig it. Its been awhile since I looked at the eagles stats but since your not opposed to FW wouldn't a relic fire raptor be better in place of one of those? I love mine. Also either way I'd suggest legacy of tzenahk (sp?) on the raptor or one of those eagles.

Lastly I guess its just a preference thing mostly but I'd break those marines into 3 units + some toys or 4 units either way all in rides.

The fire raptor is a bit cheaper and all around awesome, but I chose the eagles specifically for anti air duty. I'm not sure how much AA is a good idea to have in a 1850 game though. So far in 1000 point games i've encountered like 1 to 2 flyers. So I'd imagine at 1850 that number would just go up.

And even if not, they are still vicious against enemy vehicles and not half bad vs hordes with two S5 AP4 large blasts. If I did take a raptor I would take a variant with reaper cannons and malefic ammo.

Although If I could get my group to play the hellstrike missiles as one weapon group, thus enabling all the missile to be shot in one turn, I would probably swap the eagles for raptors. Or maybe only one, they are a lot better vs tanks after all and can maintain the shots unlike the hellstrike missiles.

Why the legacy of tzenak or whatever its called though? I haven't actually fielded either the raptor or eagle, thoguh they are on my shopping list. Are they that tough that it you can draw fire to it with the legacy and still come out on top? With them not jinking?

Without changing anything else, dividing them into 3 would mean I have 3 units of 5 with one special each. So 5 marines less overall and one less special weapon. But I can also cover more ground.
I personally prefer almost full to full units whenever the points allow it. It just looks and feels better to me. I think I'll stay with the groups of two. When I have have ten in one rhino I can could make a driveby plasma assault with 4 plasma without needing support. That seems more effective to me than the 2 shots and having to get a second unit into place to perform the same. Plus I can do it on both sides of the board, rather than one.

I suppose I could switch to Black Legion though, and replace the csm with 5-man chosen, they would be cheaper and still pump out the same amount of attacks on the charge with equal dakka, but that would mean I loose that sweet axe of blind fury on my lord.

If I do end up switching to the raptors though it might be worth it, as that would free something like 100ish points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's an alternative that goes with a fire raptor and going Black Legion.

The fire raptor is heavy support, so that means I have to take out a mauler fiend or rapier battery, so I went with a mauler fiend.
I also changed the troops to chosen which gives me a cheaper drive by plasma unit, I just have to pray that rhino stays around for a while.
And I put the other chosen unit in a dread claw to hunt objectives and act as a support unit.

Loosing the mauler fiend meant I had less running up so I went with a skyshield landing pad to have the fire raptor on the table turn 1 and it also gives the rapier battery a place to hang out. Toughness 7 and a 4++.
And I still had enough for a second biker unit, but I could only afford flamers on them.This puts one more unit on the board turn 1.
Plus enough points for a dirge caster on the Raptor or another flamer for either chosen unit, or melta bomb on the small bike squad.

I have to say I'm not confident with the bikers+ skyshield. Especially with the flamers, since they can't be fired when turbo-boosting. Or that single maulerfiend at 1850.
Seems like it's better in some aspects, but overall worse.
Better or worse?
Also keep in mind that using the Black Legion supplement is a plus to me. I'm playing Black Legion, so using the supplement is great. I often use the generic dex though, because I prefer the artifacts. I dislike using a different codex to represent one army when You have the option to take the real deal. If it's not as good that's too bad. That just means I have to find ways to deal with what I have. But in thise case the generic one is pretty much already Black Legion so yea.

if your planning on sitting on objectives take x2 5 csm in a rhino with plasma and havoc launcher and sit back, thats good for malestorm, with the spare points take off the melta bombs and go pf + lc combo on your champions and lord. if kill points then take off the missle launcher and go double plasma on one squad and go double melta on the other with dirge casters (if you have the points), and for the bikes i dont know why but i like flamers on them, making them deadly on the charge

I completely space that the raptor took a HS slot.. damn. I think I prefer list 1 honestly simply due to double mauler fiends and the AoBF. That said there is some good stuff in BL, like those chosen in dreadclaw.

I suggested tzenahk because it just brings pressure from a different angle. If you expect serious AA then maybe not, but otherwise I would expect 2 of those heavy hitting flyers to do pretty well.

I had a night lords concept list that included both a tzenahk fire raptor and cypher infiltrating a massive unit of bikes for 2++ jink hit & run etc. The best part is you could be down by 5 and still win the game theoretically if they couldn't take out cypher or the raptor. It also had a similar chosen squad in DC only rocking plasma.

Anyway got off track. I would also like to recommend a couple solo mutilators since your HS is full. Great MSU support for a rush style list like this. 61 pts buys you a T5 deep striker that can clear/take objectives and basically says deal with me or lose your tank.

Huh, how would that work?
Cypher can't join a non infiltrating unit and even if he did they wouldn't be getting 2+ jinks? Not to mention he would slow the bikes down considerably.
I like the idea of hiding extra victory points though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh ok, nvm on shrouded, I though on ly the model got the benefit..nice. Still, I don't see how he would infiltrate the bikes outside of Huron/ahriman.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wouldn't it be better to hide him in an ectoplasma rapier battery that is hiding in a ruin?

Toughness 7, 2+ cover save. Preferably with a CS sorcerer for re-rolls and ignore cover!

That was awhile back although afaik its still debated. Some places/tourneys etc do allow an IC to confer infiltrate. The reverse is expressly forbidden but not the IC conferring.
Anyway it was accepted as a thing here at the time.

The unit functions rather well actually due to hit and run acting like a trampoline.

Neither here nor there but it might give you some brewing ideas idk. Either way I like the original list you posted best.

Oh yea, it totally gave me some ideas ^^
Better with infiltrate but still tempting enough without

Roknar wrote:
That's why I said I like I took it for fluff reasons.
But let's justt assume I'd remove that, what would you spend it on?

Cultists to sit on an objective? Other wargear options?
VotLW is literally THAT bad to use.

With those saved points, what I would do is split off the Bikers into 6/4 squads, and purchase more Melta Guns for the smaller squad. Juggerlord runs with the bigger one as a better Deathstar, though you don't really have to do that.
Then you switch the ML's into more Plasma Guns on the Chaos Space Marines, because you're not taking advantage of the ONLY thing that they have over Loyalist Tactical Marines: access to two Special Weapons.

Like I said, removing VotLW gives me between 10 and 15 points, not nearly enough for a cultist squad.
Splitting the squad 6/4 wouldn't leave me with enough points for another melta, so Id'd have to split 6/3. for that.

The Missile launcher is stronger for maelstrom games imho, but what I could do is change that into two plasma for normal games and then also change the bikers to 6/3 as the rhino would drive up along with them.

In maelstrom games I would have the rhinos hang back mostly and the 3 bikers would just die right away and leave me with a weaker squad for the lord.

Roknar wrote:
Like I said, removing VotLW gives me between 10 and 15 points, not nearly enough for a cultist squad.
Splitting the squad 6/4 wouldn't leave me with enough points for another melta, so Id'd have to split 6/3. for that.

The Missile launcher is stronger for maelstrom games imho, but what I could do is change that into two plasma for normal games and then also change the bikers to 6/3 as the rhino would drive up along with them.

In maelstrom games I would have the rhinos hang back mostly and the 3 bikers would just die right away and leave me with a weaker squad for the lord.

Could've sworn VotLW was 2 points on Bikers. Meh, remove it anyway.

The ML is NOT stronger in Maelstrom because Maelstrom might require you to move, which means a snap-firing ML. If you want Heavy Weapons, dedicate a squad for it. NEVER put them on a squad you expect to be mobile in the first place. Otherwise, why ARE you buying Rhinos? Just buy Autocannon Havocs if you need that. 115 points gets you 8 S7 shots with good range. Add in a Launcher Rhino for even more fire support.

The 3 Bikers can easily be sacrificed. They're just there for some quick Melta. Don't plan on them to survive and you won't be disappointed. For the same thoughts, 6 wounds is MORE than enough for a Lord's retinue. People usually spend 150-180 in the form of either Bikers or Spawn, so spending more than that is not a smart move.

Havocs are all nice and well, but they aren't troops lol. I still need 2 troops after all. And my heavy support slots are already full with the two maulerfiends and the rapier battery. So even If i were to drop the two rhinos and some marines I wouldn't be able to take havocs.
It would free a bunch of points, but then I would truly have a bunch of useless marines.

So far I've found that putting 5 in a rhino and leaving them stationary works better than buying 2 marines more for that price as ablative wounds. Plus I get to buy a "third" special weapon in the the havoc launcher.
Although granted, when I do that I usually only pay for 5 marines. 10 might be a bit of a waste, I'd like to to test that.
But yea, in my experience the rhino is much tougher than a few ablative wounds assuming you can hide it in cover.
And the ability to move 18 inch can be enough to get to the next objective in one turn, which is more important than firing whatever gun if you have an objective you need to get to.

The thing with my bikers is, that I often find myself splitting the lord. Be it for assaulting two different units, or sometimes because of a warlord trait. I had one game where my lord had to split off and sit on an objective for like 2-3 turns, netting me a whopping 6 victory points or so.
And without the lord around I find I need the extra bodies and attacks. Although I agree that 10 is often overkill if you have the lord with you. But my fast attack is also already full because of the the two storm eagles. So it's not an option either way.

What I can do is go full Black legion again as the chosen are cheaper, which let's me change a few things and also has the benefit of using the proper supplement of my army:


Going full Legion I have to switch the axe out for PF+LC, but I can give the champion a Powerfist. And I can give one of the Eagles the Auloth legacy to give my lord+retinue FNP.
It makes that eagle slightly worse but it should still be good, and it gets pinning which is a nice bonus. Although I suppose I could switch that for a skull of Ker'ngar too , as eternal warrior on a 4 wound T5 model is pretty nice. Getting both would mean to loose the powerfist and dirge casters, so meh.

Th chosen sit on objectives and get two flamers if anything charges the rhino, or if they want to charge if the situation permits. And combi bolters because I had 6 points left.

If you're using the Black Legion Supplement, which is already considered to be bad compared to the regular codex and Crimson Slaughter, at the VERY least use the Skull artifact. That's one of the only good things in that supplement, because EW is worth so much.

Well I personally haven't really missed it so far tbh. My lord has never gone up against anything that could have instant killed him or didn't die before it could do anything anyway.

Would you trade the powerfist and dirgecasters to get both fnp and EW or just switch auloth out?