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Can a shaken land raider or jinking flyer still fire one weapon at full ballistic skill using power of the machine spirit?

Yes and yes.

Thanks

the vehicle can fire one more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted.
- Power of the Machine Spirit

What is the normal process for determining how many Weapons can be fired?

JinxDragon wrote:
the vehicle can fire one more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted.
- Power of the Machine Spirit

What is the normal process for determining how many Weapons can be fired?

If normally permitted is 0, then one more is 1.
or are you meaning that a shaken land raider or jinking flyer normal BS is BS1 ?

That wasn't an answer to the question:
How do you normally determine how many Weapons a Vehicle can fire?

It is an important question to put Power of the Machine Spirit into context, as it is modifying what is normally permitted.

That depends on the type of vehicle and movement. They are always able to fire ALL weapons, but not at full BS.

So say you drive combat speed and you fire your heavy bolters at full BS, now you can't fire any Blast templates as they are not allowed to fire as snapshots.
Now PotMS lets you fire that template, because you can fire it at full BS.

Or any other weapon for that matter. It's not about being able to fire more guns, only about firing more guns at full BS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Although I suppose somebody could make the argument that your firing the other gun at full BS SNAPSHOT, which would stop you from firing said template, but I think that's reaching at best.

JinxDragon wrote:
That wasn't an answer to the question:
How do you normally determine how many Weapons a Vehicle can fire?

It is an important question to put Power of the Machine Spirit into context, as it is modifying what is normally permitted.

If you are moving Cruising speed, you normally fire 0 weapons at full BS, PotMS allows you to fire 1 weapon. My question is if PotMS lets a Land Raider Redeemer use one of its sponsons when moving at Cruising Speed.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
That wasn't an answer to the question:
How do you normally determine how many Weapons a Vehicle can fire?

It is an important question to put Power of the Machine Spirit into context, as it is modifying what is normally permitted.

If you are moving Cruising speed, you normally fire 0 weapons at full BS, PotMS allows you to fire 1 weapon. My question is if PotMS lets a Land Raider Redeemer use one of its sponsons when moving at Cruising Speed.

Yes. It'll let you fire a template or blast when moving 12".

 Iron_Warden wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
That wasn't an answer to the question:
How do you normally determine how many Weapons a Vehicle can fire?

It is an important question to put Power of the Machine Spirit into context, as it is modifying what is normally permitted.

If you are moving Cruising speed, you normally fire 0 weapons at full BS, PotMS allows you to fire 1 weapon. My question is if PotMS lets a Land Raider Redeemer use one of its sponsons when moving at Cruising Speed.

Yes. It'll let you fire a template or blast when moving 12".

Awesome. My Redeemer just became Jink's worst nightmare.

If determining how many Weapons we are permitted to fire at full Ballistic Score has everything to do with Unit Type and Movement, why would instructions allowing us to fire one more then 'normally permitted' affect something not part of this process?

Ok, how about that argument (which can some opponents bring):
If I make Jink, or Crew is Stunned/Shaken I'm normally permitted to fire 0 weapons at full BS. Wouldn't it be possible to use PotMS to fire 1 weapon at full BS?

I'm personnaly against abusing PotMS this way, but can someone prove me wrong in above statement?

Yes.. It is possible. That's the whole point of power of the machine spirit. 1 more than 0 is 1. It's not abuse, it's the rules.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Yes.. It is possible. That's the whole point of power of the machine spirit. 1 more than 0 is 1. It's not abuse, it's the rules.

It can also be looked at like this: you can fire 1 at full BS and then a 2nd at full BS and at a different target, then due to jinked/shaken/stun are forced to snap shoot and all the shots are resolved at BS 1. Your interpretation allows a vehicle that is shooting at a zooming/swooping target at full BS just as easily as it allows the ability to ignore a penalty set on it by jink/shaken/stun. Between the two interpretations I think the first one sounds like the rules, while the second sounds like abuse. RaW and possibly RaI you are right, but I have always played it by the first interpretation as a personal HIWPI.

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Yes.. It is possible. That's the whole point of power of the machine spirit. 1 more than 0 is 1. It's not abuse, it's the rules.

It can also be looked at like this: you can fire 1 at full BS and then a 2nd at full BS and at a different target, then due to jinked/shaken/stun are forced to snap shoot and all the shots are resolved at BS 1. Your interpretation allows a vehicle that is shooting at a zooming/swooping target at full BS just as easily as it allows the ability to ignore a penalty set on it by jink/shaken/stun. Between the two interpretations I think the first one sounds like the rules, while the second sounds like abuse. RaW and possibly RaI you are right, but I have always played it by the first interpretation as a personal HIWPI.

Shooting at Flyers is a different rule, using very different wording to the rules for Jink, Stunned & Shaken. The one that is open to abuse is the interaction of PotMS and Ordnance, as that has the exact same wording in its rules as Jink, Stunned & Shaken, so the argument could be made it can fire the Ordnance and another weapon at full BS (although right now i cant think of something with Ordnance and PotMS).

LRBTs can be given PotMS via tech priest engine-seer.

 NL_Cirrus wrote:
LRBTs can be given PotMS via tech priest engine-seer.

I knew there was an example

It's true... I mean, the rule says you can fire at full BS, not that it erase the Snap Shot state of fireing... it's a snap shot at full BS?

The Ballistic Skill of a model firing a Snap Shot can only be modified by special rules that specifically state that they affect Snap Shots, along with any other restrictions (some may only modify Ballistic Skill when firing Overwatch Snap Shots, for example). If a special rule doesn’t specifically state that it affects Snap Shots, then the Snap Shot is resolved at Ballistic Skill 1.

I guess it Can't modify snap shots unless the rule stated it can (I haven't read the full rule for PotMS) so I don't know, but unless the rule specifically says it can, jink and that still fire snapshots.

Wallur wrote:
It's true... I mean, the rule says you can fire at full BS, not that it erase the Snap Shot state of fireing... it's a snap shot at full BS?

The Ballistic Skill of a model firing a Snap Shot can only be modified by special rules that specifically state that they affect Snap Shots, along with any other restrictions (some may only modify Ballistic Skill when firing Overwatch Snap Shots, for example). If a special rule doesn’t specifically state that it affects Snap Shots, then the Snap Shot is resolved at Ballistic Skill 1.

I guess it Can't modify snap shots unless the rule stated it can (I haven't read the full rule for PotMS) so I don't know, but unless the rule specifically says it can, jink and that still fire snapshots.

PotMS:
"In a turn in which the vehicle neither moves Flat Out nor uses smoke launchers, the vehicle can fire one more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted. In addition, this weapon can be fired at a different target unit to any other weapons, subject to the normal rules for shooting."

Moving and shooting:
"A vehicle that moved at Combat Speed may fire a single weapon using its Ballistic Skill. The vehicle can also fire Snap Shots with other weapons if it wishes (...)"

PotMS "bypass" Snap Shot rule.

!! HIWPI !!

It is pretty clear to me, that PotMS refers to the snapshots incurred by moving alone. So it would allow you to fire one more than normally permitted by those rules, after that you follow whatever other rules apply. PotMS simply let's you determine a base state and you take it from there

Say your standing still but jink? Jink causes everything to snapshoot, PotMS does nothing.
If you move combat speed on a normal vehicle, PotMS would change the allowance to 2 weapons at full bs, but jinking would mean you snapshot everything regardless. If that makes any sense?

So firing ordnance would not be allowed under that logic. because that is independent of your allowance.

Are the results of Crew Stunned applied every time the Vehicle fires?
If the answer is no, such Rules are an exception to the normal and thus not part of 'normally permitted.'

Rules with limited durations, especially applied due to some random chance, can only be exceptions to the default as they exist to modify that default state into something else. It is actually a very difficult concept to explain, thanks to Game Workshop writing Rules with only the simplest of interactions in mind, and I think that is the closest I can come to explaining this concept. However, this lack of coherent rule writing may actually be useful in this situation as it makes it very easy for us to determine what the 'default state' or what 'normally permitted' actually is: Any Rule interaction not fully explained by the Rulebook can be considered an exception to the normal mode of operations.

The simplest way to do it I guess, would be to check how many guns you can fire at full BS just before using PotMS to fire a gun.

That would make it undo jink and ordnance and the likes, but it still wouldn't allow you to fire at flyers as you can only shoot at flyers with snapshots. (unless the gun in question happens to have skyfire)

 danyboy wrote:

Wallur wrote:
It's true... I mean, the rule says you can fire at full BS, not that it erase the Snap Shot state of fireing... it's a snap shot at full BS?

The Ballistic Skill of a model firing a Snap Shot can only be modified by special rules that specifically state that they affect Snap Shots, along with any other restrictions (some may only modify Ballistic Skill when firing Overwatch Snap Shots, for example). If a special rule doesn’t specifically state that it affects Snap Shots, then the Snap Shot is resolved at Ballistic Skill 1.

I guess it Can't modify snap shots unless the rule stated it can (I haven't read the full rule for PotMS) so I don't know, but unless the rule specifically says it can, jink and that still fire snapshots.

PotMS:
"In a turn in which the vehicle neither moves Flat Out nor uses smoke launchers, the vehicle can fire one more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted. In addition, this weapon can be fired at a different target unit to any other weapons, subject to the normal rules for shooting."

Moving and shooting:
"A vehicle that moved at Combat Speed may fire a single weapon using its Ballistic Skill. The vehicle can also fire Snap Shots with other weapons if it wishes (...)"

PotMS "bypass" Snap Shot rule.

Thank you Danyboy
In that case, the rule specifies it only remove the penalty for MOVING, not for crew shaken nor jink. or maybe that's RAI or HIWPI

 Iron_Warden wrote:

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Yes.. It is possible. That's the whole point of power of the machine spirit. 1 more than 0 is 1. It's not abuse, it's the rules.

It can also be looked at like this: you can fire 1 at full BS and then a 2nd at full BS and at a different target, then due to jinked/shaken/stun are forced to snap shoot and all the shots are resolved at BS 1. Your interpretation allows a vehicle that is shooting at a zooming/swooping target at full BS just as easily as it allows the ability to ignore a penalty set on it by jink/shaken/stun. Between the two interpretations I think the first one sounds like the rules, while the second sounds like abuse. RaW and possibly RaI you are right, but I have always played it by the first interpretation as a personal HIWPI.

Shooting at Flyers is a different rule, using very different wording to the rules for Jink, Stunned & Shaken. The one that is open to abuse is the interaction of PotMS and Ordnance, as that has the exact same wording in its rules as Jink, Stunned & Shaken, so the argument could be made it can fire the Ordnance and another weapon at full BS (although right now i cant think of something with Ordnance and PotMS).

My point being that "1 more than 0 is 1. It's not abuse, it's the rules." is a bad way to look at this, because how many shots can you fire at full BS when targeting a flyer? 0. 1 more than 0 is 1. Now while the wording on why they are shooting snap shots are different they still end up at the same outcome.

Flyers are different. It specfically say you can only snap shot at them, and PotMS doesn't affect snapshot BS. If your firing full bs you can't fire at a flyer at all, unless you have skyfire.