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First some context. I stopped playing in 5th. I don't have the 6th or 7th edition rulebooks so I don't have a perfect understanding of the current vehicle damage system, though I think Ihave a more or less solid grasp on it. Hull points are a new concept for me and it seems like they have both some great effects as well as some flaws. It seems like it is a bit too easy to grind a vehicle down and ensure destruction with just weight of fire and not even particularly great fire. On the other hand, it seems to offer at least some protection against lucky glances quickly destroying and if I understand right, glances have been toned down quite a bit. Perhaps a bit too much. The thing that seems off to me is that hull points seem to function a little too muh like wounds in that once they are gone so is the tank. I like the idea of the damaged tank still functioning even after having taken all that damage. So I've developed a rough idea of how to make the tanks a bit more durable while still incorporating the idea of grinding them down. It just shifts the focus to being a bit more reliant on penetrating hits for destruction and a bit less reliant on glances.

--

With that out of the way, here is my idea. Standard number of hull points is 3 (I think this might need to be reduced, but will wait for feedback on that). Open topped get -1. AV13+ get +1. Certain specific vehicles may get additional + or - on a case by case basis. If you glance, roll on the table; a roll of 5+ takes off a hull point in addition to damage from the table. If you penetrate, roll on the table; a roll of 2+ takes off a hull point in addition to damage from the table. Reducing to 0 hull points does not destroy the vehicle. Instead loss of hull points effects the result on the following damage table as described below.*

0. No effect.
1. -1 to BS for one turn. This effect is cumulative and If this is reduced to 0 the vehicle may not shoot.
2. Speed reduced by 1/4. This effect is cumulative.
3. One secondary weapon is destroyed.
4. Primary weapon is destroyed.
5. Movement permanently reduced by 1/2.
6. Vehicle is immobilized permanently.
7. Vehicle is wrecked. Cannot move or shoot the rest of the game. Passengers may remain embarked if they wish. Units that can repair can still repair the vehicle.
8. Vehicle is destroyed. Passengers must disembark and on a 4+ suffer a S4 AP- hit.
9. Vehicle explodes. Only wreckage remains. Passengers suffer a S5, AP4 hit and survivors are placed in the footprint of the vehicle's wreckage.
10. Vehicle anhilated. Only a crater remains. Passengers suffer 2 S6, AP2 hits and miraculous survivors are placed in the crater.

Obviously with this chart a 6 doesn't detroy a vehicle. Fortunately there are ways to boost the damage roll.

Penetrating hits add 2 to the damage roll so penetrating hits will have results of 3-8 unless there are further modifications.
AP1, Tankhunters, having 0 hull points and other appropriate effects/rules add 1 to the damage roll.
Each hull point a vehicle has reduces the result by 1.

Gauss weapons roll on the damage table with a 6, strip a hull point and get a +1 on the damage table.

Once a vehicle is reduced to 0 hull points, a glance can wreck it with a dice roll of 6 which gets boosted to 7 because the vehicle has 0 hull points, but before that glances cannot destroy a vehicle unless some other boost is in play such as AP1. First shot kills are unlikely unless a unit is dedicated anti-tank with multiple boosters to its damage, but additional damage quickly escalates the liklihood of destruction. When down to 0 hull points a penetrating hit without other bonuses ranges between 4 and 9 on the table taking the vehicle out of commision 50% of the time.


So this is sort of a mash up of multiple editions. Thoughts about how to make it work better and where the flaws are are appreciated. I am sure there are numerous rules units and other things that I've left out, but I think they could be incorporated. Let me know if something simply is incompatible.

*Paragraph edited for clarity. Thanks for the feedback

well the immediate problem I see is that my orky trukks are AV 10 open topped so it WILL be penned and then with the +3 roll it is gonna pop pretty easily.

It starts with 2 hull points though, so the first pen result maxes out at 7 on the chart (unless there are other boosts like AP1). That means 2/3 chance you are still moving after first pen.
You've now been reduced to 1 hull point which means with next pen you go down to 1/2 chance to keep moving (assuming you made it past the first one). Third pen with now 0 hull points probably pops you because now it is +4 on the chart. So only 1/6 chance you can still move and good chance your boyz are seriously hurting with a 9 or 10 on the chart. So probably average of two penetrating hits to take out the trukk, but good chance of surviving the first one without too much damage.

I kinda want then to have seperate HP for each face. Seems more proper. It's already terribly easy to glance/pen the HP off vehicles. This kind of change might help. Walkers might even make it across the map to do battle managing it's facing right.

ProwlerPC, you want to see drifting or even backwards tanks so much? It would be pretty silly)))

Yes I'd like to be able to change the facing but this also effect which weapons and firepoints are available to use to and also chances are you are risking your less armoured rear. It has it's tradeoffs but atm vehicles get popped to easily in my opinion. This idea wouldn't negate the pen chart's possible chance of exploding the vehicle in one hit but it does mitigate a bit how vehicles are getting their hull points stripped easily making vehicles weaker then they were before they added the hull point system to vehicles.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
I kinda want then to have seperate HP for each face. Seems more proper. It's already terribly easy to glance/pen the HP off vehicles. This kind of change might help. Walkers might even make it across the map to do battle managing it's facing right.

This rule idea makes is harder to strip hull points. Glances only take off a hull point when they roll 5+ on the damage roll and penetrating hits don't take off a hull point when they roll a 1 on the damage roll. Further reducing to 0 HP doesn't automatically kill the vehicle. So vehicles are more durable with this proposed change without adding HP to each facing.

The biggest problem I see with HP for each facing is keeping track. It seems this would really bog the game down and require extensive note taking with numerous opportunities to mess up the record keeping especially in larger games with multiple vehicles to track.

Might be interesting to allow vehicles to take extra armor for each facing paying for each facing it is taken on. When the facing is hit, remove the armor and damage is negated. Next hit on that facing is normal.

Gwaihirsbrother wrote:

Might be interesting to allow vehicles to take extra armor for each facing paying for each facing it is taken on. When the facing is hit, remove the armor and damage is negated. Next hit on that facing is normal.

Ooooooh I like that idea even better, yes.

It sounds like a lot more dice rolling and even more book keeping.

I suggested it before and il suggest it again.

Glance gets to roll on table at -1
Pen stays the same
leave table as is
Glances no longer strip HP

Incredibly hard to explode a tank with glance (dedicated melta weapons on open top might do it)

Forces people to actually take anti tank weapons instead of depending on the ST7 spam. though you can still stun lock things.

Makes it so necrons have to get multiple immoblizes or destroy weapons to HP things, Makes haywire spam a little less attractive, and basically overall curbs auto take spam.

Not sure how there is a lot more dice rolling other than glances rolling on the table whereas they can't now, and vehicles surviving longer, so more damage rolls there just because it is still alive. Why are either of those bad things?

The way hull points are stripped may not be totally clear in the description, but it does not involve additional rolls. Basically the damage roll does two things: (1) determine what negative effect the vehicle suffers based on the chart and (2) takes of a hull point if the damage roll is a 2+ (pen) or 5+ (glance). You aren't rolling a second time to determine if a hull point is lost.

--

The extra book keeping I'll acknowledge. Results 1,2 and 5 on the chart would require extra tracking that isn't required now. That can easily be adjusted by keeping shaken (1,2) and stunned (3) instead of the alternate ideas. So 1,2 = stunned, 3=shaken, 4=weapon destroyed, 5=weapon destroyed, rest of chart same.

The reason I went with the chart as written is that it makes it a little harder to take away a vehicle's effectiveness with minor damage especially when it has hull points limiting the effectiveness of incoming fire. Don't want glances to be too powerful. You'll need numerous glances to "stunlock" a vehicle encouraging anti tank stuff that will be rolling in the more damaging portions of the chart faster.

I think the chart as is forces some interesting choices. "I've halved the vehicle's speed, do I move to another and try to slow it or try to make the first even slower."

Oh you were saying they only glance on a 5 or 6 on the table with a glance.

Went back and reread that section. You are right, I definitely did not describe it the way I intended. I have edited for clarity. Hopefully it makes sense now. Thanks.

 Desubot wrote:
It sounds like a lot more dice rolling and even more book keeping.

I suggested it before and il suggest it again.

Glance gets to roll on table at -1
Pen stays the same
leave table as is
Glances no longer strip HP

Incredibly hard to explode a tank with glance (dedicated melta weapons on open top might do it)

Forces people to actually take anti tank weapons instead of depending on the ST7 spam. though you can still stun lock things.

Makes it so necrons have to get multiple immoblizes or destroy weapons to HP things, Makes haywire spam a little less attractive, and basically overall curbs auto take spam.

This is the method I prefer. No offense Gwai, but this a lot simpler, easier to understand, and still solves the problem without modifying the rules to much, which could be a good/bad thing.

 saithor wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
It sounds like a lot more dice rolling and even more book keeping.

I suggested it before and il suggest it again.

Glance gets to roll on table at -1
Pen stays the same
leave table as is
Glances no longer strip HP

Incredibly hard to explode a tank with glance (dedicated melta weapons on open top might do it)

Forces people to actually take anti tank weapons instead of depending on the ST7 spam. though you can still stun lock things.

Makes it so necrons have to get multiple immoblizes or destroy weapons to HP things, Makes haywire spam a little less attractive, and basically overall curbs auto take spam.

This is the method I prefer. No offense Gwai, but this a lot simpler, easier to understand, and still solves the problem without modifying the rules to much, which could be a good/bad thing.

No offense taken. I knew before I posted it that simplicity or lack thereof would be a concern. Saithor's solution doesn't feel right to me as I think it shifts things to glances being perhaps too ineffective. I don't think it glances should just auto destroy once you get x of them, but I don't think they should have almost no chance of destroying the vehicle either. Only a 1/6 chance for a glance to cause any lasting damage to the vehicle is too little.

Actually i derped my own table.

The problem with my version is that at a -1 gauss and grav wouldn't work well because immoblize would be out of range.

I think the best course of action would be to remove the -1 for glance mod and just just stipulate that on a roll of a 7+ instead strips a HP. (so shooting a melta gun and glancing and you roll a 7+ takes a HP.) (as normal with pens)

 Desubot wrote:
It sounds like a lot more dice rolling and even more book keeping.

I suggested it before and il suggest it again.

Glance gets to roll on table at -1
Pen stays the same
leave table as is
Glances no longer strip HP

Incredibly hard to explode a tank with glance (dedicated melta weapons on open top might do it)

Forces people to actually take anti tank weapons instead of depending on the ST7 spam. though you can still stun lock things.

Makes it so necrons have to get multiple immoblizes or destroy weapons to HP things, Makes haywire spam a little less attractive, and basically overall curbs auto take spam.

Except that my armies #1 anti tank weapon for all vehicles under AV14 is....Lootas. So yeah without that im limited to Range 24 Rokkitz, ranged 36 kannonz and yeah thats about it really without getting into less common things or CCW.

If anything my army has the hardest time dealing with vehicles and getting rid of S7 spam ruins me

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
It sounds like a lot more dice rolling and even more book keeping.

I suggested it before and il suggest it again.

Glance gets to roll on table at -1
Pen stays the same
leave table as is
Glances no longer strip HP

Incredibly hard to explode a tank with glance (dedicated melta weapons on open top might do it)

Forces people to actually take anti tank weapons instead of depending on the ST7 spam. though you can still stun lock things.

Makes it so necrons have to get multiple immoblizes or destroy weapons to HP things, Makes haywire spam a little less attractive, and basically overall curbs auto take spam.

Except that my armies #1 anti tank weapon for all vehicles under AV14 is....Lootas. So yeah without that im limited to Range 24 Rokkitz, ranged 36 kannonz and yeah thats about it really without getting into less common things or CCW.

If anything my army has the hardest time dealing with vehicles and getting rid of S7 spam ruins me

Well you have to break a few eggs when making an omelet. besides im pretty sure ork book needs a lot of equipment fixes anyway.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
It sounds like a lot more dice rolling and even more book keeping.

I suggested it before and il suggest it again.

Glance gets to roll on table at -1
Pen stays the same
leave table as is
Glances no longer strip HP

Incredibly hard to explode a tank with glance (dedicated melta weapons on open top might do it)

Forces people to actually take anti tank weapons instead of depending on the ST7 spam. though you can still stun lock things.

Makes it so necrons have to get multiple immoblizes or destroy weapons to HP things, Makes haywire spam a little less attractive, and basically overall curbs auto take spam.

Except that my armies #1 anti tank weapon for all vehicles under AV14 is....Lootas. So yeah without that im limited to Range 24 Rokkitz, ranged 36 kannonz and yeah thats about it really without getting into less common things or CCW.

If anything my army has the hardest time dealing with vehicles and getting rid of S7 spam ruins me

Exactly. Some armies rely on glances to stop vehicles, so that option should have at least a chance of being effective. The trick is to make it so that armies with true anti-tank stuff have incentive to take it over spamming glancing stuff, while keeping open the ability of armies that have no good options other than glancing to wear a vehicle down given enough shots.

Or GW could just give Orks decent AT weapons. Maybe the reason they never implement this stuff is because they know they'd have to actually write stuff instead of randomly move a few things around and call it progression.