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ok, quick question, if I have a model that has a piece of wargear that gives +1 FnP to a minimum of 4+, a model with the FnP special rule will get a 4+ FnP save. Simple.

however, if I have a special rule that gives +1 FnP (with no minimum), what is the order of operations.

Can I say I get the piece of wargear first, then the special rule buff, or is it just capped at a 4+?

I would think not, mainly because I play RAI, and the reason the "to a minimum of 4+" clause exists is to prevent 3+ FnP or something of the sort. But I would like to have different opinions on the matter.

happy wargaming,

-Mikey

PS: please be civil, I don't want another thread shut down, without a general consensus.

What is the wording of the specific wargear we're dealing with?

It seems to me at a glance that the bonus should be only provided if the save does not go beyond 4+ but wording can be everything.

All effects on continuously and constantly in effect. You can't try and manipulate the order to get around the restriction because it will still be there,

You probably won't get an answer on this. It seems to be the same situation as the Mark of tzeentch limiting invulnerable saves to maximum of 3+ and other buffs to the invuln save.

Some say you get a 3+ max some will say you get a 2+. Take sanctuary as an example.
A sigil of corruption + MoT gives you a 3++, Some will say sanctuary buffs that to a 2++ (3++ and then sanctuary). others will say it stays only a 3++ as the mark won't contribute anymore (sigil and sanctuary gives you a 3++ and the mark does nothing).

Dark Eldar spirit probe

"The model, and al friendly units with both the Dark Eldar faction and the feel no pain special rule within 6" of one of more models with the spirit probe, receive a +1 bonus to their feel no pain (e.g. Feel No Pain would become Feel No Pain (4+)). This is cumulative with any other modifiers to Feel no Pain, but cannot improve their Feel No Pain beyond a 4+."

and the special rule is in the groesquerie formation in the covens supplement. One of the special rules is "latest experiments" where you roll on a table, and get that free bonus, one of them is Feel No Pain 4+.

it would only come up in certain, very specific formations, so it is not a game, changing cheese thing or whatever.

@CrownAxe - where in the rule book or FAQ does it state that? I would agree, I just am curious.

 gummyofallbears wrote:


@CrownAxe - where in the rule book or FAQ does it state that? I would agree, I just am curious.

Its a simply understanding of common sense

Are you benefiting from a rule right now? yes? Then its still in effect.

You would still be benefiting from the +1 FNP when trying to apply the additional +1 FNP to get to 3+ FNP, so it (and the restriction that comes with it) is still in effect.

Do you have a specific combo in mind? Because, if your asking if the units from the formation can be buffed by the probe? Then I'm pretty certain the answer is no.

They already have a 4+ fnp when they get in range so the probe wouldn't buff them even if you take order into consideration. The probe would come in after the formation bonus, as it only applies when you deploy, whereas the formation kicks in when list building.

If you count them the probe to always apply to the existing fnp, then again they have a 4+ fnp, which wouldn't be buffed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:


@CrownAxe - where in the rule book or FAQ does it state that? I would agree, I just am curious.

Its a simply understanding of common sense

Are you benefiting from a rule right now? yes? Then its still in effect.

You would still be benefiting from the +1 FNP when trying to apply the additional +1 FNP to get to 3+ FNP, so it (and the restriction that comes with it) is still in effect.

It's not that easy. What counts as common sense can vary quite a lot. Just look at the fmc concensus thread. And there are two equally opposed camps when it comes to MoT.

Well what else do you want?

How about using Order of Operations to explain it?

In PEMDAS, addition and subtraction are considered to be the same priority and as such are resolved simultaneously. As such all of the additions in OP's example would be done simultaneously and as such the 4+ FNP restriction would be applied simultaneously.

Sorry but I don't have a BRB quote on how basic math works.

CrownAxe - come on, be nice.

what about multiplication and division. You can make the same argument.

And Roknar, you are correct lol. Stupid me. I am still curious as to how this works.

It seems to me this only works if we assume the possibility of an order of operations that the rules don't seem to make any mention of.

Remove the unsupported idea of an order of operations and you're left with a simple question of whether, alongisde other contributing rules, including the Spirit Probe's effect would improve a model's Feel No Pain beyond a 4+.

there are multiple things that change fnp rolls and your models fnp[which are not the same thing]

if you have an effect that modifies the dice roll, and you have an effect that improves your fnp to a 4+, you pass fnp rolls on a 3+.

there is a section in the rulebook regarding modifying dice rolls versus modifiers to a check, and they are separate things.

in the case of some DE things that modify fnp, some modify the fnp value, and some modify the dice roll for fnp.

blaktoof wrote:
there are multiple things that change fnp rolls and your models fnp[which are not the same thing]

if you have an effect that modifies the dice roll, and you have an effect that improves your fnp to a 4+, you pass fnp rolls on a 3+.

there is a section in the rulebook regarding modifying dice rolls versus modifiers to a check, and they are separate things.

in the case of some DE things that modify fnp, some modify the fnp value, and some modify the dice roll for fnp.

Cool, i was wan't aware of this. Guess I'll have to double check what some powers say now lol.