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Hey, whats up everybody!

Tonight we've got a new video up for you all with Admech Vs Ravenwing/Space Wolves!

Lists are in the video and the game is 40k!

Please enjoy!

This was another awesome report. I'm guessing Ollie used to be the meecee narrating your reports. Love the accents!

Quick question, the war convction gives you free wargear on all the units right? So you should have had an omnispex in the plasma skitarii squad?

Then against the rad carbine shots the ravenwing can only claim a 3+ save (armor save), so their cover save would only be 4+ (and you have to take the best save available irrespective of re-rolls). Similarly against the plasma shots it should have be a 4+ re-rollable not a 3+ re-rollable cover save.

 CaptainJay wrote:
Quick question, the war convction gives you free wargear on all the units right? So you should have had an omnispex in the plasma skitarii squad?

Then against the rad carbine shots the ravenwing can only claim a 3+ save (armor save), so their cover save would only be 4+ (and you have to take the best save available irrespective of re-rolls). Similarly against the plasma shots it should have be a 4+ re-rollable not a 3+ re-rollable cover save.

An Omnispex is a -1 to cover saves I believe? At least this was how we played it in the batrep. In which case, because the Deathstar has a 2+ cover save; Jink (4+) Skilled Rider (3+) Stealth from Darkshroud (2+) meaning both save options would be equal, so could choose to use the 3+ re-rollable cover save when the Plasma Skitarii squad wound them.

 C4PTUR3 wrote:

 CaptainJay wrote:
Quick question, the war convction gives you free wargear on all the units right? So you should have had an omnispex in the plasma skitarii squad?

Then against the rad carbine shots the ravenwing can only claim a 3+ save (armor save), so their cover save would only be 4+ (and you have to take the best save available irrespective of re-rolls). Similarly against the plasma shots it should have be a 4+ re-rollable not a 3+ re-rollable cover save.

An Omnispex is a -1 to cover saves I believe? At least this was how we played it in the batrep. In which case, because the Deathstar has a 2+ cover save; Jink (4+) Skilled Rider (3+) Stealth from Darkshroud (2+) meaning both save options would be equal, so could choose to use the 3+ re-rollable cover save when the Plasma Skitarii squad wound them.

In the turn it mattered (I believe it was the 3rd turn), it was after he'd lost Sammaul, the dark shroud wasn't nearby to hand out stealth, he'd sent it back with the other bike squads and relic whirlwind. That's how it looked from the video anyways.

 CaptainJay wrote:

 C4PTUR3 wrote:

 CaptainJay wrote:
Quick question, the war convction gives you free wargear on all the units right? So you should have had an omnispex in the plasma skitarii squad?

Then against the rad carbine shots the ravenwing can only claim a 3+ save (armor save), so their cover save would only be 4+ (and you have to take the best save available irrespective of re-rolls). Similarly against the plasma shots it should have be a 4+ re-rollable not a 3+ re-rollable cover save.

An Omnispex is a -1 to cover saves I believe? At least this was how we played it in the batrep. In which case, because the Deathstar has a 2+ cover save; Jink (4+) Skilled Rider (3+) Stealth from Darkshroud (2+) meaning both save options would be equal, so could choose to use the 3+ re-rollable cover save when the Plasma Skitarii squad wound them.

In the turn it mattered (I believe it was the 3rd turn), it was after he'd lost Sammaul, the dark shroud wasn't nearby to hand out stealth, he'd sent it back with the other bike squads and relic whirlwind. That's how it looked from the video anyways.

All I can say is we were very careful to make sure that the right cover save was applied at all times, especially in cases where there was a Omnispex or the Darkshroud was not in range (which happened due to it getting stunned turn 1).

 CaptainJay wrote:
Quick question, the war convction gives you free wargear on all the units right? So you should have had an omnispex in the plasma skitarii squad?

Then against the rad carbine shots the ravenwing can only claim a 3+ save (armor save), so their cover save would only be 4+ (and you have to take the best save available irrespective of re-rolls). Similarly against the plasma shots it should have be a 4+ re-rollable not a 3+ re-rollable cover save.

There seems to be differing views on what the BRB means by the 'best' save. 4+ rerollable yields a better save % wise, while 3+ could be considered better since its lower.

Until tournament bodies, or GW, FAQ this expect to see it played both ways.

It was an awesome game !!!

 C4PTUR3 wrote:

 CaptainJay wrote:

 C4PTUR3 wrote:

 CaptainJay wrote:
Quick question, the war convction gives you free wargear on all the units right? So you should have had an omnispex in the plasma skitarii squad?

Then against the rad carbine shots the ravenwing can only claim a 3+ save (armor save), so their cover save would only be 4+ (and you have to take the best save available irrespective of re-rolls). Similarly against the plasma shots it should have be a 4+ re-rollable not a 3+ re-rollable cover save.

An Omnispex is a -1 to cover saves I believe? At least this was how we played it in the batrep. In which case, because the Deathstar has a 2+ cover save; Jink (4+) Skilled Rider (3+) Stealth from Darkshroud (2+) meaning both save options would be equal, so could choose to use the 3+ re-rollable cover save when the Plasma Skitarii squad wound them.

In the turn it mattered (I believe it was the 3rd turn), it was after he'd lost Sammaul, the dark shroud wasn't nearby to hand out stealth, he'd sent it back with the other bike squads and relic whirlwind. That's how it looked from the video anyways.

All I can say is we were very careful to make sure that the right cover save was applied at all times, especially in cases where there was a Omnispex or the Darkshroud was not in range (which happened due to it getting stunned turn 1).

Okay so more specifics, at 15:37 in the video, end of Si's turn 3, Oli had moved the dark shroud back in his turn (so no stealth bonus). The Si said he did 8 rad wounds and 4 plasma wounds with the skitarii vanguard into the squad (which looked like only 1 RW guy left). So its possible he passed all his 4+ rerollable jink (omnispex cancelling out skilled rider in essense) & fnp rolls against the plasma, but I would hav expected the 8 rad shots to kill a bike (3+ armour save and fnp only). Though he could have looked out sir onto the iron priests for a 2+ save instead...

 chaosmarauder wrote:

 CaptainJay wrote:
Quick question, the war convction gives you free wargear on all the units right? So you should have had an omnispex in the plasma skitarii squad?

Then against the rad carbine shots the ravenwing can only claim a 3+ save (armor save), so their cover save would only be 4+ (and you have to take the best save available irrespective of re-rolls). Similarly against the plasma shots it should have be a 4+ re-rollable not a 3+ re-rollable cover save.

There seems to be differing views on what the BRB means by the 'best' save. 4+ rerollable yields a better save % wise, while 3+ could be considered better since its lower.

Until tournament bodies, or GW, FAQ this expect to see it played both ways.

It shouldn't do, the BRB explicitly defines the 'best save' as the lowest one available (i.e. a 3+ armour save is better than a 4+ jink save). You and I both know and agree that a 4+ re-rollable is better save mathematically (expected 1/4 failures as opposed to expected 1/3 failures), however under the BRB definition of 'best save' the reroll doesn't factor in to it, meaning he should have been taking 3+ armour saves.

Apologies if I'm being a stickler over this point. I'm planning on taking skitarii as a potential counter to ravenwing (due to the omnispex) and I believe the BRB is clear on 'best save', which is why they *should* work as a counter, by burying the unit in wounds (hopefully).

A lot of people disagree and it's obvious your own opinion is self serving.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
A lot of people disagree and it's obvious your own opinion is self serving.

Thanks for your input there, yes it benefits the skitarii, it is also supported by the BRB. I said in my earlier post that I agree mathematically it is the better save to go for the re-rollable save. However this is NOT supported by the BRB, which defines what is meant by the 'best available save', which makes no mention of re-rolls. You want to house-rule, that you can take the jink save, fine, but it's just that-a house rule. If the GT rule it otherwise fine, but tell then I'll be referring to the BRB like most people do when playing 40k.

pg8, " unlike other characteristics, the lower an Armour save is, the better".
pg38 "a model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always being the best available save".

The BRB also discusses re-rolls, which are not factored in when 'determining the best available save'. It would be like casting telekine dome on a unit and saying, I don't want to to take my 3+ armour save, I want to take the 5++ instead so I can potentially bounce the shots back at your unit (* might be Necron dispersion shields instead).

The rules are wrong - the lower save is not always the best.

It's not worth arguing over lads but in this instance I'm fairly sure I had lost the omnispex earlier on in the game.

For the rerolling vs armour save conundrums - Play it as per whichever rules pack you're using says or as the dude mentioned earlier, house rule it! I'd let the guy take his best odds when there available to him- it's only fair! Thanks for watching all, we should have another posted on YouTube soon so keep those oranges peeled!

Yea it was a rough game, admech have the tools but if he rolls hot early there isn't much to be said. Omnispex the dark shroud and pucker your a-hole and hope to kill it then start with a luminigen weapon on the star and aim for a scrub dog if he left one out of place. That's the best way to drop the units durability which is an insane amount of things to have going right.

In this game deployment hurt obviously, but also the mission really favored a deathstar. Maelstrom really helps the none D-star armies get an early lead before getting fisted.

Good game!

 CaptainJay wrote:

 C4PTUR3 wrote:

 CaptainJay wrote:

 C4PTUR3 wrote:

 CaptainJay wrote:
Quick question, the war convction gives you free wargear on all the units right? So you should have had an omnispex in the plasma skitarii squad?

Then against the rad carbine shots the ravenwing can only claim a 3+ save (armor save), so their cover save would only be 4+ (and you have to take the best save available irrespective of re-rolls). Similarly against the plasma shots it should have be a 4+ re-rollable not a 3+ re-rollable cover save.

An Omnispex is a -1 to cover saves I believe? At least this was how we played it in the batrep. In which case, because the Deathstar has a 2+ cover save; Jink (4+) Skilled Rider (3+) Stealth from Darkshroud (2+) meaning both save options would be equal, so could choose to use the 3+ re-rollable cover save when the Plasma Skitarii squad wound them.

In the turn it mattered (I believe it was the 3rd turn), it was after he'd lost Sammaul, the dark shroud wasn't nearby to hand out stealth, he'd sent it back with the other bike squads and relic whirlwind. That's how it looked from the video anyways.

All I can say is we were very careful to make sure that the right cover save was applied at all times, especially in cases where there was a Omnispex or the Darkshroud was not in range (which happened due to it getting stunned turn 1).

Okay so more specifics, at 15:37 in the video, end of Si's turn 3, Oli had moved the dark shroud back in his turn (so no stealth bonus). The Si said he did 8 rad wounds and 4 plasma wounds with the skitarii vanguard into the squad (which looked like only 1 RW guy left). So its possible he passed all his 4+ rerollable jink (omnispex cancelling out skilled rider in essense) & fnp rolls against the plasma, but I would hav expected the 8 rad shots to kill a bike (3+ armour save and fnp only). Though he could have looked out sir onto the iron priests for a 2+ save instead...

No need to apologise dude, I understand your interest in this specific game interaction. However, now I know exactly when in the game you are referring to I think I can properly clear it up. When this shooting attack happened the Plasma squad no longer had an Omnispex due to their "squad leader" (unsure of proper name for Skitarii) being killed in a challenge with the Wolf Lord during the large multi-assault on turn 2. So the one remaining Black Knight was able to tank the hits using his 3+ re-rollable (Jink + Skilled Rider). Sorry for any confusion!

Edit: Just seen Si's post!

Great bat rep as always, gents!

 C4PTUR3 wrote:

No need to apologise dude, I understand your interest in this specific game interaction. However, now I know exactly when in the game you are referring to I think I can properly clear it up. When this shooting attack happened the Plasma squad no longer had an Omnispex due to their "squad leader" (unsure of proper name for Skitarii) being killed in a challenge with the Wolf Lord during the large multi-assault on turn 2. So the one remaining Black Knight was able to tank the hits using his 3+ re-rollable (Jink + Skilled Rider). Sorry for any confusion!

Edit: Just seen Si's post!

Okay cool, cheers for clearing it up (I cut down the quote to reduce the wall of text appearing in the message).

Yeah I tested my list against a similar match up (he had iron hand allies instead of space wolves), and just got smashed. I made the mistake of not targetting his darkshroud early on, and then had nothing to bring it down with. The re-rollable cover save is no joke. Also I don't know if it matters, but I advised taking black knight squads instead over the RW squads, as they're roughly similar in price, but a fair superior all-rounder (skilled rider, TL-plasma, 4 Str5 rending attacks on the charge).

Also question about the RW strike force (possibly more for YMDC but oh well). If Sammual is with the iron hands command squad, and they decide to jink, is Sammual reduced to snapshots the next rurn, or he is fine as he already 'couting as having jinked'?