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A unit of 5 costs 185pts. With Flechette Blasters and Taser Goads the Omniscient Mask for 20pts looks designed for this unit. So 205pts.

If the Wraiths are in a harvest, it is obviously essential to get rid of the spyder first. The following is assuming no RP.

20 blaster shots with shred cause 1.7 unsaved wounds against Wraiths if using the +1bs doctrine.
The neurostatic aura means even against whipcoil wraiths they will be striking at the same time and hitting on a 3+.
21 attacks rerolling to hit hit due to omnescient mask and 6's generating 2 extra hits causes an average of 28hits. (Hitting on 3+)
28 st6 hits causes 18.7 wounds which causes 6.2 unsaved wounds. So you are looking at 4 dead wraiths from shooting and assault on average. The next assault phase they cause an average of 3.6 unsaved wounds against the remaining 2 wraiths. So the unit could reasonably wipe out 6 wraiths in one game turn. Not an easy task for any unit.
Of course this is assuming you have dealt with the spyder early on, which shouldn't be a particularly tough job for Vanguard in a pod. Also assuming you get the charge.

No doubt they're a hard hitting unit, but I think they're also far too fragile for their points. I think you've assumed many things go your way when things are usually far more chaotic. The Necron player would be silly to leave his Wraith unit there for an assault not in any kind of terrain to have the Initiative advantage. Regardless of how good they may or may not be against Wraiths, T3 4+ models for 35 points has a unit of Scatterbikes laughing.

Say the unit of Wraiths was 6 strong to start all with Whip Coils and one is dead from shooting.
5 Wraiths have 15 attacks hitting 7.5 times.
5 regular wounds, half saved but instant death = 5 wounds caused on average (of course in reality they can't cause an odd number vs 2W models).
1.25 rending wounds = another 2.5 wounds on average.

7.5 wounds so you're looking at a mostly dead unit.

Yeh T3 is an issue.
Tbh I'd still rate it as a decent anti-wraith unit compared to most others.
If we are talking about a 258pt wraith unit, you could add in another infiltrator and still be cheaper. Gives a good chance at there being only 1 wraith left standing and 2 or 3 infiltrators left on the other side. The infiltrators may be mostly dead, but so are the wraiths.

Why not hit Necrons at one of their weak points instead? They have no psychic defense and Wraiths in particular are quite vulnerable to stat debuffs.

A basic Librarius Conclave can certainly put a dent into Wraiths with Force Mauls, but they are moreover a force multiplier. If you can tag Wraiths with Enfeeble and S8 damage, you just cut their effective survivability in half. Even Tac Terminators can outfight Wraiths with the right support, and with Wraiths at S5 cheap T3 units can leverage FNP to be effective tarpits.

Necrons give many 40k players a hard time because players want to smash through their defense with weight of fire. That's the hardest way to do things; it might work but I'm not sure it's the approach with the most "economy of effort".

I think usually that is the case, but the sheer amount of wounds that Infiltrators put down on average will be excellent against Wraiths because the ap- doesn't matter when fighting wraiths.

Now enfeeble like you suggest, or vanguard in combat + charging dragoons could definitely work too... and they are only 10pts more than infiltrators.

Even if you plan on testing out Infiltrators, try and leverage a force multiplier with them.

Try running the same scenario with either Enfeeble (S5/T4) or Blind (WS1) on the Wraiths, or Counterattack and full BS Overwatch (Foreboding) on your Infiltrators.

Chances are you're going to see a huge difference.

The reduction in strength from enfeeble, even discounting the reduction in toughness would be massive. The lack of ID and therefore both wounds and the FnP counting is a deal maker.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Good call!

Go smash some Wraiths and crack open a cold one for me!

Sicarian Infiltrators do a titanic amount of damage and are good anti-almost anything.

I couldn't believe the numbers when I first did the math.

Yeh - it's jaw dropping when you do the maths. Imagine 5 in a war convocation so they also get canticles and a free omnissiah mask. Then use litanies of the electromancer and +1bs doctrine...
20 bs5 st2 shred shots (shred is amazing on this!)
15 st4 I10 hits
21 st6 I4 (probably hitting first and on 3+ due to neurostatic aura) attacks with rerolls to hit where every to hit of 6 grants you 2 further st6 hits.

That could very easily wipe out a 30 strong ork mob!

I'd pin Dragoons against Wraiths before Infiltrators. Much more resilient to the Wraiths' attacks, wound them easier, same attack feature as Infiltrators (large attack volume at high S, AP-). A group of four knocks down two Wraiths on the charge before the Wraiths even swing (assuming +1WS Doctrina) and lose one for their trouble.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Yeh - it's jaw dropping when you do the maths. Imagine 5 in a war convocation so they also get canticles and a free omnissiah mask. Then use litanies of the electromancer and +1bs doctrine...
20 bs5 st2 shred shots (shred is amazing on this!)
15 st4 I10 hits
21 st6 I4 (probably hitting first and on 3+ due to neurostatic aura) attacks with rerolls to hit where every to hit of 6 grants you 2 further st6 hits.

That could very easily wipe out a 30 strong ork mob!

With Canticles, they can hit at S9.

S9.

5 guys on the charge, 20 attacks at S9.

21 attacks, don't forget the princeps ;-). I think against most targets the 3 st4 auto hits each would be better, but against wraiths who have their toughness reduced by 1... its a no brainer!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
I'd pin Dragoons against Wraiths before Infiltrators. Much more resilient to the Wraiths' attacks, wound them easier, same attack feature as Infiltrators (large attack volume at high S, AP-). A group of four knocks down two Wraiths on the charge the Wraiths even swing (assuming +1WS Doctrina) and lose one for their trouble.

Yeh dragoons would be a solid shout instead. And with the +3st from canticles, even when not charging they will double out Wraiths.

Getting the charge against a unit as mobile as wraiths is dicey, and they are under no obligation to hang out and wait for you. Other than that seems like your bringing enough dice to do the job.

Grimgold wrote:
Getting the charge against a unit as mobile as wraiths is dicey, and they are under no obligation to hang out and wait for you. Other than that seems like your bringing enough dice to do the job.

Infiltrators and Syndonian Dragoons can decently match a Wraith's mobility. Not outright - but close. Hanging out near a Wraith's intended target turns the question of who charges who into a nice little chess game.

In fact i'd say they are just as mobile when considering an assault. Wraiths have an extra 6" movement over Infantry, but so do dunestriders, just in 2 lots of 3 rather than 1 lot of 6. And because it is +3" on the charge - they are actually more reliable at getting the charge off.
Wraiths on the otherhand benefit from completely ignoring terrain.

Poly Ranger wrote:
In fact i'd say they are just as mobile when considering an assault. Wraiths have an extra 6" movement over Infantry, but so do dunestriders, just in 2 lots of 3 rather than 1 lot of 6. And because it is +3" on the charge - they are actually more reliable at getting the charge off.
Wraiths on the otherhand benefit from completely ignoring terrain.

They're also fleet. Wraiths edge out on maneuverability, but if anyone's going to match them - Dunestriders do a good job it.

Wraiths only get fleet in a harvest and then only if they sacrifice their RP.

Poly Ranger wrote:
A unit of 5 costs 185pts. With Flechette Blasters and Taser Goads the Omniscient Mask for 20pts looks designed for this unit. So 205pts.

If the Wraiths are in a harvest, it is obviously essential to get rid of the spyder first. The following is assuming no RP.

20 blaster shots with shred cause 1.7 unsaved wounds against Wraiths if using the +1bs doctrine.
The neurostatic aura means even against whipcoil wraiths they will be striking at the same time and hitting on a 3+.
21 attacks rerolling to hit hit due to omnescient mask and 6's generating 2 extra hits causes an average of 28hits. (Hitting on 3+)
28 st6 hits causes 18.7 wounds which causes 6.2 unsaved wounds. So you are looking at 4 dead wraiths from shooting and assault on average. The next assault phase they cause an average of 3.6 unsaved wounds against the remaining 2 wraiths. So the unit could reasonably wipe out 6 wraiths in one game turn. Not an easy task for any unit.
Of course this is assuming you have dealt with the spyder early on, which shouldn't be a particularly tough job for Vanguard in a pod. Also assuming you get the charge.

Getting the charge is going to be a very big issue, and the Wraiths are likely going to be the ones with choice of engagement, even with the enhanced speed of the Sicarans.

The Sicaran's are a neat unit, but fragile, and an absolutely beautiful target for things like Warriors, Tomb Blades, Ghost Arks, etc.

If they get stuck in, under ideal circumstances, could this work? Yes, but it's going to be a lot easier for the Necron army to pick this apart and destroy it I think, especially if they're fully aware of the capabilities of each Skitarii/AdMech unit.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Wraiths only get fleet in a harvest and then only if they sacrifice their RP.

Wraiths have fleet because they are Beasts

 CrownAxe wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Wraiths only get fleet in a harvest and then only if they sacrifice their RP.

Wraiths have fleet because they are Beasts

Oh yeh of course. Complete facepalm moment there. I even run Wraiths with my crons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
A unit of 5 costs 185pts. With Flechette Blasters and Taser Goads the Omniscient Mask for 20pts looks designed for this unit. So 205pts.

If the Wraiths are in a harvest, it is obviously essential to get rid of the spyder first. The following is assuming no RP.

20 blaster shots with shred cause 1.7 unsaved wounds against Wraiths if using the +1bs doctrine.
The neurostatic aura means even against whipcoil wraiths they will be striking at the same time and hitting on a 3+.
21 attacks rerolling to hit hit due to omnescient mask and 6's generating 2 extra hits causes an average of 28hits. (Hitting on 3+)
28 st6 hits causes 18.7 wounds which causes 6.2 unsaved wounds. So you are looking at 4 dead wraiths from shooting and assault on average. The next assault phase they cause an average of 3.6 unsaved wounds against the remaining 2 wraiths. So the unit could reasonably wipe out 6 wraiths in one game turn. Not an easy task for any unit.
Of course this is assuming you have dealt with the spyder early on, which shouldn't be a particularly tough job for Vanguard in a pod. Also assuming you get the charge.

Getting the charge is going to be a very big issue, and the Wraiths are likely going to be the ones with choice of engagement, even with the enhanced speed of the Sicarans.

The Sicaran's are a neat unit, but fragile, and an absolutely beautiful target for things like Warriors, Tomb Blades, Ghost Arks, etc.

If they get stuck in, under ideal circumstances, could this work? Yes, but it's going to be a lot easier for the Necron army to pick this apart and destroy it I think, especially if they're fully aware of the capabilities of each Skitarii/AdMech unit.

Good points. You can always keep the Infiltrators back and counter the Wraiths rather than rushing them it should make things easier to acomplish.

As it should be -- even with all the flashy super-units in 40k these days, we still should be winning on tactics and strategy rather than list-building

Poly Ranger wrote:



Good points. You can always keep the Infiltrators back and counter the Wraiths rather than rushing them it should make things easier to acomplish.

That would, though it also poses it's own problems, as the Sicarans are still a target for everything else in the meantime

Yoyoyo wrote:
As it should be -- even with all the flashy super-units in 40k these days, we still should be winning on tactics and strategy rather than list-building

The problem being that the Necron opponent won't have to really to get their stuff to work

 Vaktathi wrote:
The problem being that the Necron opponent won't have to really to get their stuff to work

You're getting nearly as bad as Martel, Vak

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The problem being that the Necron opponent won't have to really to get their stuff to work

You're getting nearly as bad as Martel, Vak

To be fair, no matter how much I often disagree with him, Martel's not always wrong

I mean, I like the imagination of the idea that's going here, but being a realist (or cynic, I'll let you decide) it's going to be a lot easier for the Necrons to get Wraiths to do their thing as they want them to do than get the Sicaran Infiltrators to do so.

He's usually spot on tbf when it comes to anything BA.

One on one, not so much, but Charging a unit of wraiths with Infiltrators and Rust Stockers, the wraiths are going to have a bad time.

Just with infiltrators and then maths predicts the wraiths will have a bad time. Getting the charge may be more difficult than normal as mentioned above, but if they charge, they'll severely damage a wraith unit.

Hmm I was thinking.

How do Fulgurites do? They have an Inv save, they can wound on 2s with Canticles, and they can ID.

Alcibiades wrote:
Hmm I was thinking.

How do Fulgurites do? They have an Inv save, they can wound on 2s with Canticles, and they can ID.

On paper, might be something. In application, they'll never make it to the Wraiths. Half the movement, no ignoring of terrain, low T (without multi-wounds) and a worse save (albeit an invul).