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So there are several members of my local league arguing about this and I figured I would come here for an answer.

If a necron player has a unit with multiple additive modifiers to his/her reanimation roll he/she can never roll better than 4+.
If the player is rolling reanimation against a wound caused by weapon with the instant death special rule they roll with a negative 1 modifier. so 4+ becomes 5+

But what happens when the necron player has multiple additive modifiers to their reanimation roll and an instant death negative modifier?
Does the roll become 5+ because of the instant death or is instant death cancelled out by 1 of the necron players modifiers?

Ex. a squad of warriors in the decurion get a 4+++ RP, if they are running with a cryptek they get a 3+++ RP. except RP can never be better than 4+++. If they are saving against instant death, how does it affect the roll and the modifiers?

Without looking at my rulebook, do the rules on mutliple modifiers assist?

I would imagine that a Reanimation Protocols roll not being allowed to be better than a 4+ could be considered a kind of set modifier and thus is applied last of all (if applicable) and so until that point you apply all positive and negative modifiers, and if the result is greater than a 4+ then the set modifier kicks in.

It actually helps considerably, thanks!

Not that I'm 100% sure that conclusive solves it without reading it, but it's the first thing that occurred to me.

I take it then that the idea of multiple modifiers does appear to be the case?

It's the closest case I can think of.

It is a 4+ roll, multiple additives and the 1 instant death subtractive modifiers are applied before the set value of "can never be better than 4+' is applied so the 5+++ is given a +2 and -1 before saying no better than 4+.

Personally, I'd view it as 4++ is the best you can get and you apply negative modifiers after that. But this is a bit unclear.

In a non-competitive game, I'd go with the 5+. The necron codex is already pretty strong and you can afford to throw your opponent a bone,unless they're running eldar XD. You're not TFG if you go with the 4++ interpretation but it would be a good gesture to your fellow player. Especially if they're running a weaker army like DE or Orks.

There is nothing stating that modifiers are not resolved simultaneously. So you modify +ve and -ve, then apply the limit of "no better than 4+" to the final result.

It is not in anyway a set modifier, as that would mean it was alwasy a 4+, regardless of other factors (as set modifiers come last)

Compare to say alterations to leadership - as soon as you put some kind of ordering in to the "no high er than 10" then the order you do things in is important, and nowhere are you allowed to impose that kind of ordering

Follow the multiple modifier rules, cap at 4++ after following these rules.

Well RaW the 4+ limit does nothing (as the target result is never modified you ALWAYS need a 5+, but you could be rolling that on a d6+4 meaning you'd never get lower than the 5 you need). However I think the intent is clear enough it limits you to 4+ on the dice required before modifiers however nothing allows you to intercede in the modifiers so you apply them all before working out if it is better than 4+. Some one trying to claim a 5+ has either never read the rules or is outright cheating. Show them the rules if they persist never play them as they are not going to be worth your time.

Disimprovements, improvements, and the set value all refer to the dice roll, not the target. So, the set value does something according to RAW.

Nope RPs can never be improved beyond 4+ right? So if I put 4 crypteks in a unit what do I need for my RPs? That's right I need a 5+ still so haven't exceeded the 4+ limit. However I am rolling a d6+4 giving a result between 5 and 10 as per page 11 under modifying dice. That is how the RaW works.

You can add crypteks with modifiers that would make it a 3+ but since you can only ever get it to be a 4 or better these modifiers just sit. When you are hit with an ID attack you get that minus 1 to your value of 4 which is made up for by one of the cryptek modifiers.

die toten hosen wrote:
You can add crypteks with modifiers that would make it a 3+ but since you can only ever get it to be a 4 or better these modifiers just sit. When you are hit with an ID attack you get that minus 1 to your value of 4 which is made up for by one of the cryptek modifiers.

That is not even remotely how the rules work. Modifiers always apply in a set sequence and additions and subtractions always occur at the same step. As I said RaW the 4+ doesn't even do anything but ignoring that it certainly has no permission to intercept the modifiers process nor have you anything that says you even resolve the pluses before the minus...

Same as everyone said:
modifiers:
1st: Check multip modif.
2nd: check Add/subtract modif.
3rd: Check Cap
4th: set values if there is.

So I agree to the 4+ save in the end.

die toten hosen wrote:
You can add crypteks with modifiers that would make it a 3+ but since you can only ever get it to be a 4 or better these modifiers just sit. When you are hit with an ID attack you get that minus 1 to your value of 4 which is made up for by one of the cryptek modifiers.

Just plain wrong, as has been explained.

You have no permission, ever, to apply a limit during a calculation. If you disagree cite a rule. Until then the case has been proven.

 FlingitNow wrote:

die toten hosen wrote:
You can add crypteks with modifiers that would make it a 3+ but since you can only ever get it to be a 4 or better these modifiers just sit. When you are hit with an ID attack you get that minus 1 to your value of 4 which is made up for by one of the cryptek modifiers.

That is not even remotely how the rules work. Modifiers always apply in a set sequence and additions and subtractions always occur at the same step. As I said RaW the 4+ doesn't even do anything but ignoring that it certainly has no permission to intercept the modifiers process nor have you anything that says you even resolve the pluses before the minus...

Incorrect.

Codex Necron wrote:Certain special rules and wargear items can provide modifiers to this dice roll; these are cumulative, but the required dice roll can never be improved to be better than 4+.

The target never changes, all improvements, disimprovements, and set values are for the roll.

Charistoph wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

die toten hosen wrote:
You can add crypteks with modifiers that would make it a 3+ but since you can only ever get it to be a 4 or better these modifiers just sit. When you are hit with an ID attack you get that minus 1 to your value of 4 which is made up for by one of the cryptek modifiers.

That is not even remotely how the rules work. Modifiers always apply in a set sequence and additions and subtractions always occur at the same step. As I said RaW the 4+ doesn't even do anything but ignoring that it certainly has no permission to intercept the modifiers process nor have you anything that says you even resolve the pluses before the minus...

Incorrect.

Codex Necron wrote:Certain special rules and wargear items can provide modifiers to this dice roll; these are cumulative, but the required dice roll can never be improved to be better than 4+.

The target never changes, all improvements, disimprovements, and set values are for the roll.

Cool so what are the possible dice roll results from a D6+2 (hint the answer is on page 11 and it is 1-6). Also what page in the rulebook is that quote from?

Cool changed to Necron Codex rather than BrB as initially posted.

Yes, they all aply to "the roll", but they are aplied at different times:

Multiple Modifiers wrote:
If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Cool so what are the possible dice roll results from a D6+2 (hint the answer is on page 11 and it is 1-6).

Right, 1-6, so If you roll a 3, even with every RP buff you can get (which is a bit, and no, 2 Crypteks aren't better than one here), the Protocol fails.

And minimum of 4+ is a set value for the best RP roll


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charistoph wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Cool so what are the possible dice roll results from a D6+2 (hint the answer is on page 11 and it is 1-6).

Right, 1-6, so If you roll a 3, even with every RP buff you can get (which is a bit, and no, 2 Crypteks aren't better than one here), the Protocol fails.

The result of the Dice is between 1-6, the number checked for the RP is (1-6) +2

Page 11 disagrees with you.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Page 11 disagrees with you.

Care to provide an actual title to the section? Not everyone walks around with the hardbound, after all.

And the Codex disagrees with you. And Codex trumps Rulebook.

Codex doesn't disagree with me. Unless you have a quote that says a dice result on a d6+2 = 1-6? Page 11 paragraph 6 titled Modifying Dice Rolls says it is between "3 and 8"...

 FlingitNow wrote:
Codex doesn't disagree with me. Unless you have a quote that says a dice result on a d6+2 = 1-6? Page 11 paragraph 6 titled Modifying Dice Rolls says it is between "3 and 8"...

Then understand perspective and what the rule actually states. The required dice roll can never be improved to be better than 4+. It does not matter what improvements are added to the roll, a 3 or less will always fail.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Codex doesn't disagree with me. Unless you have a quote that says a dice result on a d6+2 = 1-6? Page 11 paragraph 6 titled Modifying Dice Rolls says it is between "3 and 8"...

That is exactly what I said...

(probably is your page 11):

Modifying Dice Rolls wrote: Sometimes, you may have to modify the number rolled on the dice (or ‘the roll’). This is noted as D6 plus or minus a number, such as D6+1. Roll the dice and add or subtract the number given to or from the roll (as appropriate) to get the final result. For example, D6+2 means roll a dice and add 2 to the number on the dice for a total between 3 and 8.

But I understand what you mean.
You are saying that ID is a modifier to the "The Roll", the bonus to improve the RP is not aplied to the roll but to number needed (different, but very close)

What I think Flingit is saying is that:
a) ID is a -1 to the roll -> D6-1
b) Improvement to the RP is changed the requiered 5+ to a 4+ (at max) not a modifier to The Roll

So, D6 Roll: 4, ID modif -1 --> Final Result 3
Check against requiered: Requiered is 4+
3 < 4 then Fails the RP.

Did I get right what you meant?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Resolve Dice Modifiers (3)
Resolve Save Modifiers (4+)

Check both


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charistoph wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Codex doesn't disagree with me. Unless you have a quote that says a dice result on a d6+2 = 1-6? Page 11 paragraph 6 titled Modifying Dice Rolls says it is between "3 and 8"...

Then understand perspective and what the rule actually states. The required dice roll can never be improved to be better than 4+. It does not matter what improvements are added to the roll, a 3 or less will always fail.

He is saying that "Requiered Dice Roll" is different that the "Result of the Dice Roll" That actually es true.

That something improves a Save, doesn't mean it is a modifier to the Roll.

I.E. Stealth improves cover save, changing it from 5+ to 4+ (for example) it's not a modifier to the roll, not D6+1. In both cases you have to roll a 4, but in the first case is a roll of 4 vs a 4+ save. The second is a D6 Roll of 4+1 vs a save of 5+.
As I said, they are the same in practice (you have to roll a 4+), but are different things.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm reading the Necron Codex now, and found these rules:

COMMAND BENEFITS:
Ever-living: Models in this Detachment with the Reanimation Protocols special rule receive a +1 bonus to Reanimation Protocols rolls. Models in this Detachment with the Living Metal rule ignore the effects of Crew Stunned and Crew Shaken (but still lose a Hull Point).

Technomancer: This model and all models with the Reanimation Protocols special rule in his unit receive a +1 bonus to Reanimation Protocols rolls.

Lord of Technomancy: Illuminor Szeras and all friendly models with the Reanimation Protocols special rule in units within 6" of him, including his own unit, receive a +1 bonus to Reanimation Protocols rolls

Master Chronomancer: Orikan and all models with the Reanimation Protocols special rule in his unit receive a +1 bonus to Reanimation Protocols rolls and can re-roll saving throws of a 1.

Roll a D6 each time the model suffers an unsaved Wound, subtracting 1 from the result if the hit that inflicted the Wound had the Instant Death special rule. On a 5+, discount the unsaved Wound – treat it as having been saved. Certain special rules and wargear items can provide modifiers to this dice roll; these are cumulative, but the required dice roll can never be improved to be better than 4+

All are modifiers to the roll, so all aply at the same time, and then aply the cap of 4+