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I played my first game since fifth edition last weekend and felt like I should not have bothered deploying. My Ork opponent had effectively won after his second turn and almost tabled me after his third. I have removed the assault units, which proved utterly worthless, and mixed in some units that I do not yet own models for (my planned 'shopping list' before I play again). I am not looking to win a tournament: I just want to be competitive enough in friendly games to re-learn how to play. I know the popular Nid list is 4+ FMCs with Mawlocs, but that does not particularly appeal to me. I would rather start a new army from scratch that run a list like that: Nids have to include small bugs, medium bugs and big bugs, or I am not interested!

EDIT: Redesigned lists in following posts as the discussion has evolved.


The Gargoyles will initially screen the two FMCs, but once they start flying I can use the Gargoyles to tarpit a threat, or just really annoy my opponent if everything is in tin cans. The two FMCs will be the early-game threat while everything else moves forward.

I have the initial Termagant brood for screening (using Spinefists so I can reserve my Fleshborer models for spawns) and, if they survive, a little dakka later on. They will be accompanied by the Warriors, for Synapse, and the Dakkafex.

The Zoanthope will stick with the Hive Guard to give them Synapse and possibly help out in the Psychic phase. I was under-whelmed by Zoanthropes, but that is the cheapest Synapse available.

The Tervigon sits on the home objective, hopefully spitting out enough Termagants to help it hold the area.

For this list I would need to buy a Flyrant, a Tervigon, a Hive Crone and three Venomthropes. I also need to paint the Hive Guard, Gargoyles and Devil-Warriors (I used to use Deathspitters). Do I have a viable plan here, any glaring holes I really need to patch before I go any further, or are hoard Nids simply not a viable option at the moment?

What was your original list, and his if you don't mind?

My bro plays horde nids and does decent in friendly environments.. which orks qualify as outside of a few builds.

I'd split the gargoyle brood into 2 broods, and stick 1 brood on each FMC (maybe the FMC should take separated ways for better strategy)

I'd also drop 1 Venom and other's 5 pts and get another zoan, they are quite hard to kill with that 3++ and Warp Blast can bring a lot of dmg (2 lances vs vehicles or 2 Burst vs blobs for the cost of 2 Warp Charges)

Also I think that 3 Hive Guards are too much, specially if you face blobs, thay are more efective vs small quantity of enemies or some vehicles. 4 S8 Ap4 is enought most of the time. Maybe adding a Biovore for large blobs, S4 Ap4 Large Blast Barrage if hit, or 1D3 spore mins if miss (that are minimum S4 Ap4 and can charge that very turn, so place it the closest to the blob you just missed, and can also absorb the overwatch leaving the gargoyls free way to charge)

-1 Venom (45), -1 Hive Guard (55) = -100
+1 Zoan (50), +1 Biovore (40) = 90.
and you have 10 more points for whatever you want, maybe Egrubs for the Tervigon if a vehicle ventures to that obj.

Also, Biovores having 48" range, and can Indirect Fire due Barrage can give you better fire support, sitting back with the Tervigon or another obj or in good cover.

Hello there!

My first suggestion would be to abandon Regeneron. In a game above say ~1250 points, most opponents can bring sufficient power to bear to kill a monstrous creature in one turn if they decide to do so. Typically adding Regen only increases your lost points when this happens.

After that I would recoomend either A) dropping the Venom and Zoans in favor of a Malanthrope. Forgeworld rules, check them out, it's both better and cheaper! Alternatively B) Scaling up your Zoanthrope count at the expense of Hive Guard and added a Neurothrope and Drop Pod. This gives you high-yield firepower and mobility when you might need it most.

Lastly I love Carnifex. However they're slow as the slugs they evolved from. Depending on your opponent this may be ok (Orks come to you quickly, Carnifex would have a hayday). But in general I'd recommend either a Pod or Outflank if possible, else replace him with something else if possible.

Cheers.

dominuschao wrote:
What was your original list, and his if you don't mind?

I did not keep the list (so no added up points), but last weekend I ran:

Hive Tyrant /w Scything Talons & Venom Canon joined by 3 x Tyrant Guard - too slow, so opponent ignored/outmanoeuvred all game.

3 x Hive Guard - destroyed a Battlewagon before being killed by a Biker Warboss
3 x Zoanthropes - achieved nothing (other than a Perils of the Warp) before being killed by Deff Koptaz

16 x Hormagants - all killed by overwatch
16 x Termagants /w Fleshborers - all but one killed turn one Psychic Phase by Weirdboyz; lone survivor, dubbed "Supah Gant", took a turn-two pot shot at a Warboss (failed to wound) and killed one Shootaboy on turn three
8 x Genestealers - outflanked and entered turn two, killed Deff Koptaz turn three
2 x Warriors /w Deathspitters and 1 x Warrior /w Barbed Strangler - shot down one Biker before being charged and wiped out by Biker Boyz

1 x Dakkafex - killed Biker Warboss before Biker Boyz killed him.
1 x Stranglerfex - achieved nothing; was tied up in combat by Nobz, who slowly wore him down for no losses
1 x Trygon - popped up turn two, killed five Boyz and a Trukk, but was ignored by opponent

If you're going Gribblies I would suggest the Endless Swarm formation so that they can keep coming back.

Endless Swarm formation is:
3x Warriors
30x Termagants min
30x Hormagants min

I'd supplement it with Flyrants for mobile Synapse and Trygons for tunnels to get them to places.

 Elric of Grans wrote:

dominuschao wrote:
What was your original list, and his if you don't mind?

I did not keep the list (so no added up points), but last weekend I ran:

Hive Tyrant /w Scything Talons & Venom Canon joined by 3 x Tyrant Guard - too slow, so opponent ignored/outmanoeuvred all game.

3 x Hive Guard - destroyed a Battlewagon before being killed by a Biker Warboss
3 x Zoanthropes - achieved nothing (other than a Perils of the Warp) before being killed by Deff Koptaz

16 x Hormagants - all killed by overwatch
16 x Termagants /w Fleshborers - all but one killed turn one Psychic Phase by Weirdboyz; lone survivor, dubbed "Supah Gant", took a turn-two pot shot at a Warboss (failed to wound) and killed one Shootaboy on turn three
8 x Genestealers - outflanked and entered turn two, killed Deff Koptaz turn three
2 x Warriors /w Deathspitters and 1 x Warrior /w Barbed Strangler - shot down one Biker before being charged and wiped out by Biker Boyz

1 x Dakkafex - killed Biker Warboss before Biker Boyz killed him.
1 x Stranglerfex - achieved nothing; was tied up in combat by Nobz, who slowly wore him down for no losses
1 x Trygon - popped up turn two, killed five Boyz and a Trukk, but was ignored by opponent

Thanks. It looks like a friendly mixed list just a little unfocused and not enough models for horde, not in this edition. I think the shell is workable though, with some tweaks fwiw. Depending on how cutthroat your buddy's army is, terrain etc.

Anyway I like the above suggestion for going with the endless swarm formation (dataslate rising leviathan 2). If you do go this route maybe consider making at least one gant swarm 30 strong from the formation so you can unlock a tervigon as a compulsory troops choice (says included in your army). You could even do this with both gants if you felt the need.. Just something to think about.

As for tweaks heres what I got (include frozocones suggestion here too). Theres some good advise above regarding upgrades like regen and such so I'll just echo that too. Anyway:

-make the tyrant into a flyrant for starters. I've seen alpha warriors do pretty well also hidden inside large gaunt swarms, if you really want a walking warlord that is.

-Run the tyrant guard separately (if you still want them) as a single model is probably most desirable.

-Hive guard could stay as is or lose a model. 2 or 2x2 is where they like to be but I've seen 3 work too when space is tight like it always is. Plus they're cool.

-Zoans are hogging precious elites unfortunately so I would suggest drop them or 'counts as' malanthropes from ia4 anphelion project. If your unfamiliar its a 85 pt, s/t 5, 4w venomthrope with synapse and sitw among other things. kinda a venom + zoan in one which is obviously great all things considered. Otherwise if your opposed to this than at least make these into venomthropes which aren't bad either. In fact they can be a right pita at times especially if hidden from LoS. But split them up. Units of more than 2 anywhere in elites is usually not the best idea.

-By the same token I'd split those stealers into 2x5 or 1x5 and keep away from outflank as a primary plan. Your last experience with them was probably when stealer shock from outflanks was a thing to be feared, or even hated if you were my deathwing camped center field. Well not anymore sadly. Without some kind of sneaky git plan like the stealershame list floating around here they don't function nearly as well anymore.

-hormies and termies could be taken from endless swarm, warriors too. The main drawback from my perspective is taking warriors as a tax. I'd much rather see these as shrikes which are a very underrated unit IME. They can be very potent and fast for cheap and bring mobile synapse. If you don't want to take the endless swarm formation consider going with the tried and true Leviathan detachment (1 hq 3 troops min, 3 hq 9 troops possible). AND the cmd benny lets you reroll the IB roll for any unit from that detachment. Fantastic for hordes and skimping on synapse (a little).

The stranglefex I'd suggest doubling up as another dakka. Much more productive. This might be a place where adrenals is fitting depending on how many T5 units you see. The trygon is super cool so maybe see how he does but otherwise you could make him into a mawloc for the same number of wounds at 90 pts cheaper.. with hit and run and barrage ap2.

Anyway thats what I got for now.

For the Endless Swarm formation I have: 32 Hormagants, 32 Termagants with Fleshborers, 16 Termagants with Spinefists and 16 Termagants with Devourers, 5 Warriors with Devourers, 5 Warriors with Deathspitters, 1 Warrior with a Barbed Strangler and 1 Warrior with a Venom Canon. I definitely like the idea of this, because that is the kind of backbone I want in my list! I would like to jack up the size of the Termagant unit(s) and mix in some Devourers, but I am a little worried about exceeding points. Likewise, I love the idea of using the Trygon with that, but points are again a concern (he is pretty over-priced). With so many little bugs, and a 50% chance of them respawning, is there really any need for the Tervigon? It seems pretty over-priced too, and I suspect the Formation may replace it.

I would happily remove the Zoanthropes, as I do not think they contribute enough, but I am worried the force would be far too light on for Synapse. The Trygon Prime seems waaaay over-costed for what it brings, but perhaps dropping them for him for a tunnel and more synapse? Seems pretty risky, however, it makes him an even bigger target.

I may not be doing this right --- I am still getting my head around seventh edition rules, so I do not really understand properly how formations slot into a list --- but I have tweaked to this so far:

The wndless swarm formation is now 3 broods of hormagaunts and 3 broods of termagants (not 2 anymore)
Plus, giv eyour warrior Deathspitters and Rending Claws (10 pts each) + another 10 termagants, 70 more pts.

35 spare.

And I'd insist on getting a trygon or 2.

Trygons/Trygon Primes are pretty much mandatory for Endless Swarm, or else they'll be coming on from your board edge. The tunnels ensure you can get them back into combat, or if you don't need them for that purpose, then from the board edge for backfield objectives as opposed to limiting yourself to one option.

Wallur wrote:
The wndless swarm formation is now 3 broods of hormagaunts and 3 broods of termagants (not 2 anymore)

Where is the update on this found? I may have other out-of-date information elsewhere.

 Elric of Grans wrote:

Wallur wrote:
The wndless swarm formation is now 3 broods of hormagaunts and 3 broods of termagants (not 2 anymore)

Where is the update on this found? I may have other out-of-date information elsewhere.

Actually I don't know where was that update, also I forgot that the Tyranid Warriors are still part of the formation. (Cheking on Google to see if I find it)
After the update it is:
1 Brood of Tyranid Warrior
3 Brood of Hormagaunts
3 Brood of Termagants

The other formation with an update, is the Living Artillery Node, but that just specify that the 3 Biovores are 1 Brood of 3 Biovores, and can not be 3 Broods of 1 Biovore each,

Thanks for the updates!

I have tweaked the list a little more. It feels to me like there is not enough Synapse in there. The Gargoyles should fall under the Hive Tyrant's Synapse, and I would leave the Zoanthropes by the Hive Guard, but I doubt the Warriors alone could handle the hoard. I presume the Trygon and Hive Crone can, statistically, handle themselves. Should I drop something to add more Synapse, or would this list work fine as a starting point?

I don't see why your Tyrant costs 255. Is there something not shown?

I agree that you could use more Synapse, maybe trim the Gargoyles, and add a second Brood of Warriors?

 Elric of Grans wrote:
I played my first game since fifth edition last weekend and felt like I should not have bothered deploying. My Ork opponent had effectively won after his second turn and almost tabled me after his third. I have removed the assault units, which proved utterly worthless, and mixed in some units that I do not yet own models for (my planned 'shopping list' before I play again). I am not looking to win a tournament: I just want to be competitive enough in friendly games to re-learn how to play. I know the popular Nid list is 4+ FMCs with Mawlocs, but that does not particularly appeal to me. I would rather start a new army from scratch that run a list like that: Nids have to include small bugs, medium bugs and big bugs, or I am not interested!

HQ
Hive Tyrant (255)
* 2 x Twin-Linked Devourer /w Brainleech Worms
* Electroshock Grubs
* Wings

Tervigon (235)
* Regeneration

ELITES
Hive Guard Brood (165)
* 3 x Hive Guard (Impaler Cannon)

Venomthrope Brood (135)
* 3 x Venomthrope (Lash Whip)

Zoanthrope Brood (50)
* 1 x Zoanthrope

TROOPS
Termagant Brood (120)
* 10 x Termagant (Spinefists)
* 10 x Termagant (Devourer)

Tyranid Warrior Brood (100)
* 1 x Warrior (Scything Talons, Barbed Strangler)
* 2 x Warrior (Scything Talons, Devourer)

FAST ATTACK
Gargoyle Brood (120)
* 20 x Gargoyle (Fleshborer)

Hive Crone (165)
* Stinger Salvo

HEAVY SUPPORT
Carnifex Brood (150)
* 1 x Carnifex (2 x Twin-Linked Devourer /w Brainleech Worms)

The Gargoyles will initially screen the two FMCs, but once they start flying I can use the Gargoyles to tarpit a threat, or just really annoy my opponent if everything is in tin cans. The two FMCs will be the early-game threat while everything else moves forward.

I have the initial Termagant brood for screening (using Spinefists so I can reserve my Fleshborer models for spawns) and, if they survive, a little dakka later on. They will be accompanied by the Warriors, for Synapse, and the Dakkafex.

The Zoanthope will stick with the Hive Guard to give them Synapse and possibly help out in the Psychic phase. I was under-whelmed by Zoanthropes, but that is the cheapest Synapse available.

The Tervigon sits on the home objective, hopefully spitting out enough Termagants to help it hold the area.

For this list I would need to buy a Flyrant, a Tervigon, a Hive Crone and three Venomthropes. I also need to paint the Hive Guard, Gargoyles and Devil-Warriors (I used to use Deathspitters). Do I have a viable plan here, any glaring holes I really need to patch before I go any further, or are hoard Nids simply not a viable option at the moment?

I would drop regeneration on the Tervigon. Just not worth it IMO.

What types of games are you playing? You can pay for Hive Commander on the HT and if your Tervigon is a troops choice, you can use him to outflank. An outflanking obsec Tervigon gaking out baby gaunts is going to draw some attention.

I would drop a Venomthrope and proxy one (or two) as Malanthropes. Better in every way, bar none. They'll also give you some more synapse. I would also combine the genestealers and upgrade one to a Broodlord.

Might also consider the Skytrant Formation with your gargoyles. Basically, your winged HT can only glide (not swoop) but passes Look Out Sirs! on a 2+. Kitting him out with melee (say with the Reaper) will make him pretty effing scary.

If you don't want to outflank your Tervigon, you could just run a second CAD (or Hive Fleet Detatchment) with the Tervigon as your HQ to give you more elite slots.

pinecone77 wrote:
I don't see why your Tyrant costs 255. Is there something not shown?

Er... well, you see, it is like... um... carry the one... and... OK, I swear, I normally can do simple addition!

I re-added all the points and come to 1505:


With Warriors, I have 5 models with Devourers, 5 with Deathspitters, 1 with a Barbed Strangler and 1 with a Venom Cannon.

I have two possible ideas for getting more Synapse in:
1) I could drop the Zoanthropes and Genestealers, adding in two broods of Warriors. With the remaining points I could add Biocannons to each brood and a Stinger Salvo to the Hive Crone.
2) I could drop one brood of Gargoyles and one of Genestealers to add one brood of Warriors. I could again add Biocannons to both Warrior Broods in the list and a Stinger Salvo to the Hive Crone. In this case, I would have to deploy the Hive Tyrant and the Hive Crone near each other to share the same Gargoyle screen.
3) I could drop the Hive Crone, add an extra brood of Warriors and use the remaining points to add a few Devourers to the Termagant Broods. (I assume this is the worst of the three ideas)
It is possible there is a fourth, better option that I do not realise. I am just not 100% certain as to how effective these units will be under seventh edition!

I like option two the best, but I actually like Warriors, and find them usefull. I used to use lots of Stealers, but that was a Long time ago.

As you play more games you'll find what works best for you. One trick I use is to view Tyranids as parts of a machine, not as indidiguals.

So for example I would forma "Bug Star" with say Hormagaunts as a Screen, a Dakafex, a Veno, and a Synapse. Working together each is grater than the sum.

pinecone77 wrote:
One trick I use is to view Tyranids as parts of a machine, not as indidiguals.

You understood the Hive Mind