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Been playing CSM for some time and felt like I've become too stagnant with my list. I play 1500 to 2000 normally, though am never OP or crushing games (CSM codex is of course pretty weak overall anyways). Below is my go-to quick list for 2000 pts., would love some feedback on what looks good vs. what needs to go:

Combined Arms Detachment

HQ
Chaos Lord (170pts)
- MoK
- Juggernaut
- AobF
- Sigil of Corruption

Sorcerer (142pts)
- Terminator Armor
- Lvl. 2 Psyker
- Force Sword
- Combi-melta

Elites
Terminators X3 (112pts)
- 3X Comni-melta
- 3X Power Sword

Troops
Cultists (60pts)
- X10 w/ Autoguns

Cultists (102pts)
- X23 w/ Pistols + CCW

Fast Attack
Bikers X4 (123pts)
- 2X Melta
- Champion w/ CCW + Bolt Pistol + Melta Bomb

Heldrake (170pts)
- Baleflamer

Heavy Support
Predator (140pts)
- 2X Lascannon Sponsons
- Turret TL Lascannon

Havoks X10 (180pts)
- 4X Autocannons
- Champion w/ CCW + Bolt Pistol

Obliterators X2 (158pts)
- MoN
- VotLL

Allied Detachment

HQ
Daemon Prince (305pts)
- Daemon of Nurgle
- Lvl. 3 Psyker
- Burning Brand of Skalanthrax

Troops
Chaos Space Marines X10 (210pts)
- 2X Plasma Guns
- Champion w/ CCW + Bolt Pistol
- Rhino w/ Dirge Casters

Heavy Support
Maulerfiend (125pts)
- Magma Cutters



So, the first problems with my list is usually
1) A solo Maulerfiend does not make it far and soaks up too much hurt.
2) Terminators are weak, even with suicide melta min-squads.
3) Where to stick my Terminator Sorc, he usually rolls with the big blob of cultists but is often too slow to make any difference.
4) Nurgle Prince never seems to do enough hurt from the air to justify how well he can survive. Which table should I roll on for powers??
5) My Juggerlord escort is far too weak. More bikes? Switch to MoK Spawn? Maybe ditch the juggerlord for a Nurgle Lord and stick him with MoN bikes instead?

Any ideas or input would be appreciated.

You've identified a lot of the problems with your list already, I'm not certain how much I can contribute. What does come to mind is this; you're getting nickeled and dimed. Taking Autoguns on Cultists or mass Combi on Terminators are heavy burdens for little output, consider cutting these relatively low value items out to increase model count of the useful choices.

On the other side of that, there are certain upgrades that are incredibly useful that you do not have. A prime example of this is the Spell Familiar on your Sorceror.

My rewritten army list would lose the Lord, Terminators, Daemon Prince, and Chaos Space Marines in favor of Spawn to escort your Sorc on a Bike, Be'lakor to fill out the second HQ slot, and perhaps a second Maulerfiend. These are what I'd suggest without dramatically changing everything you have. Good luck!

Your list is dying to be turned into a khorne daemonkin list with CSM allies to take the units not in the KDK codex.

You could take a gorepack formation for your bikers and take khorne dogs to escort your juggerlord.

Blood tithe table gives your army huge bonuses not to mention atleast 3 or 4 summoned units throughout the game.

Last game I played KDK against tyranid endless swarm list and I got 8 blood tithe points turns 2 - 4.

Granted, only 2 bloodthirsters summoned properly and the other 2 attempts just turn my champions into red mist but still!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and its amazing to cheer on your own units/champions to die.

@Cieged,

Yeah I think I know what I need to do I guess, just been so set in my ways for too long. Your other point is appreciated, it can be so tempting to kit out dudes with cool guns. Need to consider how many more bodies/wounds I could be getting instead. I mean, Autoguns are fun at supplying massed shots at 12" but the pistols/CCW's are still effective. Especially at tarpitting. Just dropping the X10 Autoguns would give me 2.5 more cultists as is.

@Chaosmarauder,

Oh man, I REALLY want to run Daemonkin. Right now it's mostly $$$. Would want the Codex and the hounds. Gorepack seems to be a favorite for KDK, and the blood tithe table is very attractive. Closest thing to a Doctrine or Chapter Tactic Chaos can get. Actually better in a lot of regards I suppose.

I would really just need to pick up some Khornedogs to run a test list. See how well the dogs can do at keeping up to the Juggerlord.

To Buy: 1 moreMaulerfiend and lots of Daemons then.

If you want a box of cheap khorne dogs, a box of chaos warhounds from fantasy is like $25 and they look good on the new oval 60x35mm bases and you can get 10 bases for like $10

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Chaos-Warhounds

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Citadel-60-35-Oval-Bases




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also put corkboard piece under my dogs just to make them a touch beefier/taller

Awesome idea, I was actually just pricing out the actual models vs. proxies of some sort. Those hounds would do the trick, thanks.

Continuing on with the gorepack idea:

HQ's:

x1 Chaos Lord (160pts)
-Bike (20pts)
-Power Armour (0pts)
- x1 Lightining Claw (15pts)
- x1 Power Fist (25pts)
- Sigil of Corruption (25pts)

GOREPACK (KDK):

x4 Chaos Bikers (163pts)
- Champ w/ Twin Lightning Claws (30pts)
- x2 Plasma Guns (30pts)

x5 Chaos Bikers (175pts)
- Champion as before (30pts)
- x2 Melta Guns

x10 Flesh Hounds (160pts)

x10 Flesh Hounds (160pts)

TOTAL COST: 818pts

Tactics:

- Run the Chaos Lord with the four man biker squad. Go after HQ's, elites and light vehicles (transports etc.) as the lord gets five powerfist attacks on the charge and you have two plasma guns
- Flesh hounds can take big balls of troops well, considering they gain HoW from the gorepack formation
- Preferred enemy psyker means it is easier to kill those psyker ruining your day
- Melta bikes can also be used for light vehicle popping and the biker champions can go quite well in challenges against squish champions meaning extra BT points for you! (bloodthirster?)
- If points are an issue the drop a hound squad
- Lord has a 3+ armour save, a 4++ invul save and three wounds. However, he can still be quite vulnerable so use him wisely
- Plasma guns can be dropped to meltas and the 4++ invul on the lord can be dropped to a 5++ if more points are needed
- Flamers may be better than meltas in some cases and will save you points

Note: I haven't tried this in-game yet but it sounds pretty solid to me. However, if you have any improvements to add then feel free to post them below.

I like it, looks solid. Problem for me is I don't have the KDK codex, so my knowledge of how formations work is largely based off Battlescribe list building. I was not sure you could take an HQ chaos lord with the KDK Gorepack. But that's a huge boost to give him the Blood Tithe ability.

I like the X10 hound squad idea as mobile infantry/pskyer threats. Plus the bikes matched with a biker lord would at least allow for a Jink save (I've always had the lord on a converted Juggernaut, mostly because of how badass he looks).

I suppose at only 800 or so points I could easily ally in straight up CSM for the other Heavy Support slots and such.

I prefer juggerlord to go with the hounds which gives him scout and dont usually give my biker champs much cause they usually die to save the special weapons.

No the biker lord isn't part of the gorepack, so if you want a combined arms detachment you'll have to take 2 troops choices. I'd say cultists because they are cheap and you get extra BT points.