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can a fortification be placed in reserve?

I understand that there is a rule saying that all models that cannot move will be removed as casualties if placed in reserves, however, is there a rule specifically prohibiting fortifications being placed in reserve?

thanks!

This is a permissive rule set. You don't look for rules saying you can't, you look for rules saying you can.

Otherwise I can just declare myself the winner because there isn't a rule saying i can't declare myself the winner.

So the burden in on you to prove that you can put a fortification in reserves.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
can a fortification be placed in reserve?

I understand that there is a rule saying that all models that cannot move will be removed as casualties if placed in reserves, however, is there a rule specifically prohibiting fortifications being placed in reserve?

thanks!

There is already a thread discussing this.

The overwhelming majority of Dakka responders say 'no,' you cannot.

I don't think their interpretation of the rules is correct, but in the face of that much opposition, I'm willing to bow to public pressure and play it that way.

@crown axe - is a fortification a model? Yes. Does it say that all models can choose to be placed in reserves, yes.

@JimSolo - is there a summery of each argument? Just the argument on each side? Im curious lol.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
can a fortification be placed in reserve?

I understand that there is a rule saying that all models that cannot move will be removed as casualties if placed in reserves, however, is there a rule specifically prohibiting fortifications being placed in reserve?

thanks!

There is already a thread discussing this.

The overwhelming majority of Dakka responders say 'no,' you cannot.

I don't think their interpretation of the rules is correct, but in the face of that much opposition, I'm willing to bow to public pressure and play it that way.

The rules also say No you can not.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
@crown axe - is a fortification a model? Yes. Does it say that all models can choose to be placed in reserves, yes.

Actually a Fortification is not a model as defined by the 40k rules.

To be a model you need a unit type. Buildings/Fortifications do not have a Unit type so they are not a model.

The rules for models say that "In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type" (Models and units chapter, Other Important Information section).

No unit type = not a model. This is explicitly written in the rules. If it does not have a unit type it IS NOT a model as defined by the 40k ruleset. This is indisputable.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
@crown axe - is a fortification a model? Yes. Does it say that all models can choose to be placed in reserves, yes.

Look again. The rulebook doesn't mention models when it comes to reserves, it mentions units. Are Fortifications considered units when you need them to in order to place them in reserve? Maybe, maybe not.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
@crown axe - is a fortification a model? Yes. Does it say that all models can choose to be placed in reserves, yes.

@JimSolo - is there a summery of each argument? Just the argument on each side? Im curious lol.

Yes, the beginning of the topic sums up the arguments on either side.

Except for the 'it's not a model' argument, which is, to quote another user, 'willfully obtuse.' It's the 'technically correct' kind of ludicrous that led people to claim that Wraith units couldn't shoot because they couldn't draw line of sight, or that Mephiston could cast Sanguine Sword once and keep it up all game.

wow, I kinda stumbled upon a war lol.

and actually, it wasn't because I wanted to be TFG and deepstrike a fortress, my friend didn't have room to deploy his bastion (green tide orks) and didn't want to keep 1000-ish point unit in reserve.

so basically, the prevention of such hijinks are down to TFG behavior this debate is trying to prevent?

*quietly shuts computer lid*

 gummyofallbears wrote:
I understand that there is a rule saying that all models that cannot move will be removed as casualties if placed in reserves...

This only applies when the model cannot be deployed because of room in the Deployment zone. and forced to be in Reserves.

Still, it would need a way to be moved on to the table in order to actually arrive. And that is where the questionableness of the Dark Eldar WWP comes in to play to try and make it possible.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
@crown axe - is a fortification a model? Yes. Does it say that all models can choose to be placed in reserves, yes.

@JimSolo - is there a summery of each argument? Just the argument on each side? Im curious lol.

Yes, the beginning of the topic sums up the arguments on either side.

Except for the 'it's not a model' argument, which is, to quote another user, 'willfully obtuse.' It's the 'technically correct' kind of ludicrous that led people to claim that Wraith units couldn't shoot because they couldn't draw line of sight, or that Mephiston could cast Sanguine Sword once and keep it up all game.

Except that buildings are not Units as they do not have a unit type. (Claimed buildings are units at the start of the game, but that is after deployment), so you can not put them into reserve as only units can go into reserve.

 DeathReaper wrote:
(Claimed buildings are units at the start of the game, but that is after deployment)

Incorrect. Claimed Buildings can come from your Detachments, which definitely applies well before the start of the game.

Charistoph wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
(Claimed buildings are units at the start of the game, but that is after deployment)

Incorrect. Claimed Buildings can come from your Detachments, which definitely applies well before the start of the game.

The rules partially favour Death Reaper.

There are two ways to claim a building.
Either embark, or at the start of the game, buildings bought as part of your army are automatically claimed at the start of the game.

summary of arguments I copy and past this every time this comes up:
I believes its permissible to deeptrike a building using the wwp

wwp "If a model with a webway portal is in Reserves or Ongoing Reserves, then the model and any unit it has joined or is embarked upon has the Deep Strike special rule. This model, and his unit, will not scatter if arriving from Deep Strike Reserve."

Building is a model quotes just a few
1."it will be clearly stated on the models data sheet."p112
2."the building that make up a multi-part building are treated as separate models...." p.112
3. "if the model has armour values"p.183

I could go on but theirs no point.

A building is a model so can go in reserve
(p.132 "Which ever method you use models must ether deploy within the deployment zone or be held in reserve.")
A claimed building is a unit in the controlling players army. p.112
"if a unit enter a building they immediately capture and claim that building"p.112

"moving into a building works the same as embarking and disembarking a vehicle" ..."all of the normal rules apply" p.110 bottom left hand pargraph
your combined unit and ic mounted in building makes it a unit because its then claimed.( this happens in reserve)
the 'combined reserve units' section brb p.135 right hand column allows the wwp carrying character to be embarked in reserve.

It then gains the deep strike rule from the wwp and the rest is history

Mr. Shine wrote:
Fortifications/buildings are also not Transport vehicles, so again I point out if you are able to place it into reserves there is no permission to declare an Archon with Webway Portal also placed into reserves is embarked upon it.


this is the only potentially valid counter point I can see.

that is possibly countered by "Moving into or out of a building works the same as embarking or disembarking from a vehicle...all of the normal rules apply" p.110 depending on your interpretation of "move"

this point is very unclear and up to interpretation.

Charistoph wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
(Claimed buildings are units at the start of the game, but that is after deployment)

Incorrect. Claimed Buildings can come from your Detachments, which definitely applies well before the start of the game.

That's actually not true.

Claimed Buildings can come from your Detachments, but they are only claimed at the start of the game.

Rules quote that proves this: " At the start of the game, all buildings that were taken as part of a player’s army are ‘claimed’ by the owning player, whilst all other buildings are ‘unclaimed’." (Battlefield Terrain chapter, Claiming Buildings section, 1st bullet point).

Notice how they are claimed "At the start of the game" not before.

Furthermore a building or fortification is not a model ever because ALL models will have a unit type. Fortifications do not have a unit type, they have a terrain type.

A Fortification is not a model as defined by the 40k rules.

To be a model you need a unit type. Buildings/Fortifications do not have a Unit type so they are not a model.

The rules for models say that "In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type" (Models and units chapter, Other Important Information section).

No unit type = not a model. This is explicitly written in the rules. If it does not have a unit type it IS NOT a model as defined by the 40k ruleset. This is indisputable.