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Made in gb
Emboldened Warlock




Widnes UK

1. Can an independent character deep striking on his own join a squad if he lands within 2" of it?
The rules for IC say that the IC has to move to within 2" of the squad to join it and I don't think deep striking actually says it counts as moving. Conversely when it is talking about choosing between 2 squads later on it just says you need to be in range of the squads, not that you moved there. I think it is just badly worded and that the character doesn't actually have to move to join.

2. Assuming I can join the unit: if Baharroth deep strikes and is within 2" of a squad of swooping hawks with at least 5 models will he drop the large blast or the small one?
Grenade Pack
Any time a unit with a grenade pack enters play by deep strike and doesn't mishap nominate one model in the unit immediately after it arrives. That model can make a single special shooting attack with the profile below. ...
24" 4 4 Assault 1, barrage, blast, skyburst, ignores cover
Skyburst
This attack does not need line of sight. If the unit consists of at least 6 models with a grenade pack, the attack has the large blast rule instead of the blast rule.

Ulthwe: 7500 points 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Vanished Completely

It all comes down to how you interpret the words 'any further' within ... Deep Striking units may not move any further ...
Some take it as evidence the Unit has moved as part of Deep Striking, others do not.

The second point is interesting, the inclusion of the word 'immediately' informs us this Rule needs to be resolved as soon as it is triggered.
If you complete the joining process before resolving the Grenade Pack, have resolved the Grenade Pack 'immediately?'

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/08/19 18:16:41


8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

Number two would be a definite 'No' either way as the Baharroth would only join the Swooping Hawks at the end of the Movement phase, after the Grenade Pack is used.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Wait wait wait...

So if an Independent Character joins a unit when Deep Striking, since that unit did not Deep Strike, can the Independent Character's unit still declare a charge?

 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






For the second question: no. No matter how you try to parse it only 1 model has entered play via deepstrike.

"The unit" in skyburst must reference the unit that is firing the grenade pack, which is the unit that entered play via deepstrike, which is the bharroth unit(a unit of 1 model). His joining a unit upon arrival does not change the number of models in the unit that entered(and if you were to try to say it does because he immediately becomes a member of the swooping hawks, well congratulations: the unit that entered play no longer exists and now you cannot use the grenade pack at all since there is no unit on the table that entered play via deepstrike)


As for the first question; it does not really matter, at the end of the movement phase barry joins the unit. Part of the IC rules is that if you are within 2" at the end of the movement phase you join that unit(and have to declare which unit you are joined to if within 2" of multiple units)

Tl:dr yes you will join the unit, no you will not get a large blast.

This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Vanished Completely

If the Rule was only that simple, and I don't doubt the Authors thought they where making the Rule that simple but the words they used where poorly chosen:

In order to join a unit, an Independent Character simply has to move so that he is within the 2" unit coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their Movement phase. If the Independent Character is within 2" of more than one unit at the end of its Movement phase, the player must declare which unit it is joining. If an Independent Character does not intend to (or cannot) join a unit, it must (where possible) remain more than 2" away from it at the end of the Movement phase. This is to make clear whether they have joined a unit or not. Note that, after an Independent Character joins a unit, that unit can move no further that Movement phase.
- Independent Character

The underlined parts are the problem, as the Rule specifically mentions the Independent Character has to move in order for the Joining to trigger. It then goes on to restrict when and how we go about using the Rule, but simply being able to obey those restrictions does not allow us to ignore the Trigger that starts it all. If the Independent Character has not moved then it can not begin the Joining process, so a Deep Striking Unit will have to have 'moved' during the Movement Phase in order to trigger the Joining process. If Deep Striking is even movement, or just deployment, has been debated to death on this site before so we all know there is no definite answer.

Then it goes on to treat the Independent Character's movement as an independent Movement Phase, which is just down right bizarre. The Rule repetitively refers to it, their, and words that specifically appear to be relating to the Model itself instead of simply stating 'at the end of the Movement Phase.' We could state that it is referring to the player's Movement Phase, but I can't fathom why it would matter if the Rule triggers in every Movement Phase or just an individual Players Movement Phase. Maybe to prevent someone from being able to 'push' the Independent Character out of a Unit before the Shooting Phase, but we all know Game Workshop does not write Rules to account for that detailed a Rule Interaction. That is if there is even a Rule that allows someone to push an enemy Model around during the Movement Phase, older Rules existed that could have done so but do they exist still?

The last underlined section is also a enigma if it is talking about 'the End of the Movement Phase' as a whole, as opposed to the Independent Character's movement itself. This sentence creates a timing issue where the Joining process needs to occur before the End of the Movement Phase, by restricting an action that occurs during the Middle of the Movement Phase. At the very least we have to conclude that the Rule is poorly written and 'it's Movement Phase' is open to so many different interpenetration that it is impossible to figure out what the intention was, let alone the Written Rule.

While I am dissecting the Rule I decided to bold a section for a related problem... it negates the section that came right before it!
It makes no sense to inform us what to do if an Independent Character ends the movement within coherency with two units, before requiring us to ensure that it never occurs....

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/08/20 17:50:50


8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






Models/units do not have individual phases. Their /its movement phase is the owning player's movement phase(as opposed to the opponent's movement phase)

This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Vanished Completely

Agreed that they don't, but I am highlighting how poorly written the Rule is:
Why start the Rule stating the Model Joins by moving, if it occurs automatically at the End of Phase?
Why do they have a Restriction preventing the 'Joined Unit' from moving any further if Joining occurs at End of Phase?
Why contain instructions on how to do something then forbid us from using them in the very next sentence?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/08/20 21:34:55


8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in us
Auspicious Daemonic Herald





JinxDragon wrote:
Agreed that they don't, but I am highlighting how poorly written the Rule is:
Why start the Rule stating the Model Joins by moving, if it occurs automatically at the End of Phase?
Why do they have a Restriction preventing the 'Joined Unit' from moving any further if Joining occurs at End of Phase?

Restating the obvious
   
 
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