Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So I was thinking this morning that high init does you jack a lot of the time.

WS vs WS makes it a very flat curve in terms of trying to hit something, and if you raise a unit's WS it becomes better at hitting, and avoiding getting hit to perhaps an excessive degree.

My thought:

Compare WS to Init to try to hit, but use the Str vs Toughness table.

Some Examples:
Space Marines: Against other MEQs - Hits on 4s, wounds on 4s (So this stays baseline), Against Guardians - Hits on 5s, wounds on 3s. Against GEQ - hits on 3s Wounds on 3s (Same)
Guardians: Against MEQs - hits on 4s wounds on 5s (Same), Against GEQ - Hits on 2s wounds on 4s, Against Necrons - Hits on 2s, Wounds on 5s
GEQ: Against Other GEQ - Hits on 4s, wounds on 4s. Against Guardians - Hits on 6s Wounds on 4s, Against MEQ - Hits on 5s, wounds on 5s (Actually overall worse in CC

This would give a slight edge in survivability in CC, and a very slight damage buff (Against slower targets), but does not increase their survivability against shooting at all.

Haven't considered all the angles, but it could make initiative a much more meaningful stat than it is right now.

Space marines against guardians you say Hits on 5s, should be hits on 4 unless the target is more than double weaponskill (9+)

GEQ against Guardians you says hits on 6s, again this should be 4 unless the Guardian has 7 weapon skill somehow.

High initiative pretty much only matters if you have high damage output to go with it. (Best with glass cannon types)

High weapon skill pretty much only matters if you have more than double your target.

Strength gets very good against toughness fast because you can get a 2+ to wound with only have 2 more strength than the target toughness.

Armor piercing is huge because its pretty much all or nothing, as in you get a 3+ or 4+ or ... nothing.

You missed where I said use the Str v Toughness table. So 4 v 5 = hits on 5s.

My point was specifically to make WS and Init more valuable as opposed to the current system where there is so little difference in CC capabilities of WS/Speed between models.

A better fix would be to fix the WS table

Lendys wrote:
So I was thinking this morning that high init does you jack a lot of the time.

WS vs WS makes it a very flat curve in terms of trying to hit something, and if you raise a unit's WS it becomes better at hitting, and avoiding getting hit to perhaps an excessive degree.

My thought:

Compare WS to Init to try to hit, but use the Str vs Toughness table.

Some Examples:
Space Marines: Against other MEQs - Hits on 4s, wounds on 4s (So this stays baseline), Against Guardians - Hits on 5s, wounds on 3s. Against GEQ - hits on 3s Wounds on 3s (Same)
Guardians: Against MEQs - hits on 4s wounds on 5s (Same), Against GEQ - Hits on 2s wounds on 4s, Against Necrons - Hits on 2s, Wounds on 5s
GEQ: Against Other GEQ - Hits on 4s, wounds on 4s. Against Guardians - Hits on 6s Wounds on 4s, Against MEQ - Hits on 5s, wounds on 5s (Actually overall worse in CC

This would give a slight edge in survivability in CC, and a very slight damage buff (Against slower targets), but does not increase their survivability against shooting at all.

Haven't considered all the angles, but it could make initiative a much more meaningful stat than it is right now.

So an Eldar player is suggesting we change the CC phase so that Initiative plays a more prominent role. I wonder why...Ohh yeah because Eldar all have stupidly high initiative compared to most armies. Sorry dude this is such a one sided buff that it doesn't make sense to even debate.

No. This would make some armies ridiculously overpowered (eldar, who are already ridiculously good at the other three phases of the game) and completely destroys some armies (orks, necrons) I would really hate rolling 6s to hit with my orks against the most common army. Just make it so that double ws is 2+/6+ instead of 3+/5+.

Edit: misread. Would still make high initiative armies be OP though, but not as much as I said. Hitting on 4s mostly and geting hit on 2s is deadly with orks.

I have wanted WS to be more like BS, so a WS6 Chaos Lord would hit Space Marines on a 2+. It's hard enough to get into combat these days so that would help make up for it by making WS more valuable. I think Initiative is already good as if it's higher you get to strike first. If anything Initiative should be able to be used to avoid Stomp attacks.

It's an interesting idea, but not for the current units.

Initiative is mostly a meaningless stat. Units with high Initiative essentially get it for free, and units with low initiative don't get much of a cost saving because of it.

You could not ascribe this new rule without seriously throwing the entire balance of the assault phase out the window.

I don't know. Initiative makes a pretty big difference for my armies. Swinging before marines (and thus swinging before most units in general) means hitting with all your attacks before your squishy gents get slaughtered, and it lets you K.O. more sluggish characters in challenges. It's also handy when you have Hit & Run or when you want to savor the delicious feeling of cutting down enemies in a sweeping advance. Or when your butt is being handed to you, and you don't want to be caught in a sweeping advance.

Initiative doesn't matter much to MEQ armies, but it's handy for those armies that use it.

But in regards to your suggestion OP, I'm afraid I'm not a fan of it. as has been pointed out, it makes fast armies unnecessarily difficult to drag down. :(

I agree initiative makes a bigger difference . I'd never assault with firewarrios , not because of low str or low ws , but always going last is worse

Just change the WS chart so that it scales like the to wound chart. There is really not a good reason for to hit to cap at 3+ in melee like it does.