Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I was reading some criticisms of the Chaos Dreadhold product line today, and it got me to thinking: hey, GW could use an apologist to address these concerns to the public. Since GW doesn't pay anyone to do it, I'm going to toss them a freebie, and address community concerns regarding the Chaos Dreadhold, and invite you to add your own concerns and answers to those concerns.

So, to start things up:



Concern: "Why are there so many skulls? GW didn't put any imagination into the Dreadhold, they just caked on skulls."

Explanation:

Aesthetic is a question of personal taste, but I do feel like the design of the fortress does match he fluff - the Khorne armies of AoS are written in the novels as having long since won in their respective realms.

These are Chaos warriors with nothing to do but turn on each other. They're bored, and honestly if Khorne didn't prolong the lives of his champions I think the whole lot would die off in short order, because they're not reproducing or growing crops, and they've killed nearly everyone else.

As such, their fortresses likely haven't defended against an opposing army in millenia, while in those dull centuries they've had plenty of time to stick every skull they can reap on the walls of the fortress, desperate to impress Khorne in a time when there's nothing worthy left to kill.



Concern: "The placement of the skulls are dumb, an attacker could just climb right up them like a ladder to get in."

Explanation:

By the time the Stormcast show up to put them under siege, the current generation of muscled-up goons likely know nothing about siege war, and think of the fortress as little more than a shrine to their patron. They're unlikely to even understand the value of a fortification, beyond its value to their god, and this is represented by the Dreadhold warscrolls. As an example, one will notice the Skull Keep warscroll simulates the keep having no real benefit to generic defenders, beyond granting cover, because in reality the Stormcast will already know just how to siege the tower, while the Khornate defenders will have long since forgotten important siege-defense equipment. Pots of boiling blood to dump on invaders just aren't as common as they used to be, and nothing is more dangerous to Chaos preparedness for war than a long victory. Meanwhile, they're belief that the keep is a shrine to Khorne is entirely correct, as a General or Priest can call out to their god and call down the madness of the warp on attackers in ways the defenders will never understand.



Concern: "They expect us to pay $1100+ US for a castle model?"

Explanation:

Not at all. The Chaos Dreadhold products are fully modular - you could start as small as a $25 wall section (Which comes down to $20 at your favorite 20% off discounter) and simply buy a new small piece when you're done painting the last one. Within a few months, you'll have a fortification to be proud of. But, the fantastical 8-star design you've likely seen should not be considered a "normal" buy-in for a hobby gamer. In fact, that model is nearly 4' by 4' in size, and would therefor take up two thirds of a regulation playing space, leaving little room for attackers to maneuver around it. Instead, it is presented to stoke the imagination, and show just how grand the models can be in extreme circumstances. This is not unlike how Forgeworld might show vast 30k armies fighting at the feet of numerous titans - Forgeworld does not expect you to buy tens of thousands of dollars in models to play 30k, and is simply showing off a spectacle in hopes of drawing your interest.


Concern: "Yeah, but the old Empire watchtower was like $30, and even the cheapest of these Chaos towers is $75, what a ripoff!"

Explanation:

Well, no, because while the Empire watchtower was much cheaper, it was, uh... Oh, it wasn't modular, and anyway these new ones have far more detail. Hmmm, except Witchfate Tor was huge, and had loads of detail, and a complete interior, and now they expect us to pay about the same price for a gate. So, you know... the old Fortress was $100 too! Admittedly, it had 4 towers, and three walls, and a gate, but, you know, no skulls. When you take into account the cost of buying bits packs to coat the old Fortress in as many skulls as this new one, you're actually getting a considerable savings with the Dreadhold. Just sayin'.

Yeah, wow, these are really expensive...

I had been totally hyped up to buy some, but I just can't excuse it at these prices. I wish I'd bought a Warhammer Fortress sometime in the last ten years, because I'm starting to realize what a great value it was. Still, if you want a super-detailed, fully modular, skull encrusted fortress of Khorne, the Dreadhold is the finest money can buy.


Man, it's not easy being a GW apologist.

So, how about you? Any concerns different than I posted, which I could apologist-up? Or, any concerns you've seen, which you have your own explanations for?

I just want to point out detailed is not a good word for this. Cluttered is more accurate to describe this fort.

The best fort money can buy is a by paying someone with talent to custom make a fort tailored to your tastes and painted to the theme you need. I wonder how much cheaper ti would be to pay someone to make a better fort than it would be to buy this junk from GW?

Ultimately it is up to personal taste how cool this thing is, but I would not in any way call this good value for money.

A few things I do find silly about it, is the lack of air defense, the exposed pathways to the towers and the gates don't seem sensible compared to forts I have seen.

I see at least 3 spots where they could have fit in some more skulls.

Witchfate Tor came out five years ago. We have five years of price increases to account for. By my quick calculations, if released today, Witchfate Tor would cost... $1,745,235.

I just bought the entire line of buildings from Tabletop-world.com

It was less than buying the chaos star fort, and somehow I feel i got a better deal

Sadly, these poor peasants in Croatia just don't know enough to charge GW style prices for their beautiful buildings. That have full interiors. Had no flash or defects. Come assembled and ready to paint.

2nd order going in this week because jealous friends all want them now too.

The Chaos Dreadhold is cool. I just don't want to pay for one, and even painting it would be a chore because I'm not sure how it even fits into games or how I'd use it.

Why defend a company that doesn't want to be defended?

I guess I like the idea that bored warriors of Khorne become landscapers and exterior decorators.

"Blood for the Blood God! Tasteful water features for his throne!"

 Swastakowey wrote:
I just want to point out detailed is not a good word for this. Cluttered is more accurate to describe this fort.

The best fort money can buy is a by paying someone with talent to custom make a fort tailored to your tastes and painted to the theme you need. I wonder how much cheaper ti would be to pay someone to make a better fort than it would be to buy this junk from GW?

Ultimately it is up to personal taste how cool this thing is, but I would not in any way call this good value for money.

A few things I do find silly about it, is the lack of air defense, the exposed pathways to the towers and the gates don't seem sensible compared to forts I have seen.

Hahaha, mate, I really have to ask you - why do you even come to AoS forums at all? I have yet to see a positive post from you in this section and I am slowly starting to think you only come here to whine and spit all over GW, their games and pretty much anything related to that company.

You're saying it's cluttered, but "cluttered" is a personal opinion and even if it was, cluttered detail is, well, a lot of detail so, yes, he was right saying it's detailed.

I probably agree with you on the custom-made fort and value for money as customs are often cheaper if they're simple, although on the other hand if someone likes this particular aesthetic (or just the sheer amount of detail the plastic kits offer), no craftsman is going to ever make by hand a model like the Dreadhold for that cost. As simple as that. It'd take ages to sculpt all those skulls, even if he used a sculpting putty stamp with skulls, it's still not going to be the same. So for people who like this particular stylistic, this is the way to go and no amount of your personal opinion on those models is going to change it. Not to mention the fact that ordering a custom is going to take much longer and is more prone to failures on craftsman's side than just buying the kit and painting it.

As for your last point about no air defense... very few medieval castles had those - the walls were exposed on the top. The only issue I have with the pathways to the towers is the lack of guard rails/fortified sides to protect those going in and out during the battle, but then again we're arguing about a fortress that is supposed to be manned by forces of the guy who doesn't believe in shooting. Putting any khornate model on the wall is outright going to be a waste of models as they have no ranged weaponry whatsoever if we're looking at it this way. Not to mention that even if we took it into account, khorne's followers aren't really bright nor reasonable, the wall is probably there for them to not get shot to pieces as enemy army approaches so they could just open the gate and surge out last moment. The whole fort idea would make more sense if Chaos had ranged units. Inb4 Chaos Warriors with huge bows.

 Klerych wrote:
Hahaha, mate, I really have to ask you - why do you even come to AoS forums at all? I have yet to see a positive post from you in this section and I am slowly starting to think you only come here to whine and spit all over GW, their games and pretty much anything related to that company.

Welcome to the Internet, where opinions different to yours may exist.

In fact, that model is nearly 4' by 4' in size, and would therefor take up two thirds of a regulation playing space, leaving little room for attackers to maneuver around it

And that is a bad thing The only problem with it is the cost. Now if it was such, that khorn was unplayable without it or at least some parts of the fortification, then there would realy be a problem. Right now I see non. The edge it gives is countered by the mind blowing cost it has, and it is not something every khorn player needs. '

As far as skulls go, 8th was already called skull edition, most people didn't like it. In general I think GW has bad taste in making models adding stuff not to make models look good, but at best to make them harder to copy. At worse they add stuff to the models for the sake of adding stuff alone. But this is a taste thing. There may very well be people who like that kind of models. Win for them and everyone else had more then one edition to get used to skulls on everything.

Concern: "I just want to point out detailed is not a good word for this. Cluttered is more accurate to describe this fort."

Explanation:

Cluttered is an accurate term to describe this fort, as is abomination. To the eyes of unsullied men, clean of heart and pure of purpose, the works of Chaos are hideous to gaze upon. It is said that to those of untainted heart just looking at the cursed symbols of chaos causes nausea and instinctive revulsion. It is good that you sense it's disgusting excess, as this means that the darkness has not yet wormed its way into your soul. You are still clean, and so long as free men remain clean of heart and pure of purpose, there is hope we can ultimately defeat the sickness of Chaos from our lands.

Conversely, as previously mentioned, the armies of Aqshy who dwell within these cursed strongholds haven't had anyone better to fight than frightened orphans for generations. Just as Egyptian Pharaohs had a tendency to order their names carved into structures built long before them for other people, so to does each successive generation of Chaos, trapped in this hellish time without worthy opponents, seek the favor of Khorne by hot-gluing on skull after skull after skull to their fortresses. And when the skulls run out, they melt down the metals of the weapons of those armies defeated long ago, and beat them into the form of demonic faces and spinal columns and the like, and fuse them to the towers, all the while thinking "Well... Khorne's bound to like this sort of thing, and it'll have to do until we find something to kill." So it has been for at least a millenia, while the fortifications of Khorne have grown ever more baroque with the labor of Khorne's worshippers.



Concern: "A few things I do find silly about it, is the lack of air defense, the exposed pathways to the towers and the gates don't seem sensible compared to forts I have seen."

Explanation:

These concerns are all accurate and correct assessments of defensive weaknesses in the design of the Dreadholds. We can assume, based on historical outcome, that most fortresses and defensive positions in Aqshy and other mortals realms were originally used by those Chaos was attacking. Only when victory was achieved did Chaotic forces begin erecting these crude monuments, and their design speaks volumes about what they value and what they do not understand. Air defense? Mortal armies of Khorne never before faced flying opponents, that falling exclusively to those demons of Khorne who could hold themselves aloft on leathery wings. As such, the fortress does provide air defense, by providing a locus of murder and bloodshed strong enough to summon beasts like Bloodthirsters to the field. Exposed pathways? Originally the outlying towers were not part of the central design, and later were added as free standing structures. By the time the bridges were added, the designers were more concerned with how many skulls they could dedicate to Khorne as cobble-stones on the bridge, than with the concern of long-dead archers hitting them. Worse, many champions of Khorne will make their underlings use stupidly over-exposed defensive positions like these, simply to prove that they're not afraid to die - it is psychological weaknesses like these that free men may use against them, and may well prove integral to the ultimate victory.

Nothing is sensible, when Chaos is involved.



Concern: "I see at least 3 spots where they could have fit in some more skulls."

Explanation:

These open spots are provided so that you, the hobbiest, may decide who's skulls to dedicate to Khorne and glue to your fortress! Will it be more human skulls, or perhaps the Orc skull from the Orc box set? Perhaps a beastman skull, from the old Skeleton box set? GW invites aspiring skull takers to take this opportunity to customize the fortress to exactly your personal tastes! (So long as your personal tastes lean toward skull encrusted fortresses)



Concern: "I just bought the entire line of buildings from Tabletop-world.com. It was less than buying the chaos star fort, and somehow I feel i got a better deal."

Explanation:

You did - anyone who can afford Tabletop-world.com (and more can, than can afford the Dreadholds) should buy from them whenever possible. Their models are superb, and are ideal for representing the Empire of the Old World, while still looking perfect as a D&D town or with Warjacks battling it out in the streets between them. Further, like GW, tabletop-world frequently retires old designs, ensuring any designs you skip will one day make you say "Darn it, I should have bought that when it was available..." No one should buy the Star fort of Chaos, unless creating a stationary display for a very large gaming store, or for a very large gaming club that wishes to share the expense and painting duties - it is completely impractical for one person to own or store. On a smaller scale, the only strength the Dreadhold has over Tabletop-world's exquisite creations is simply that the Age of Sigmar universe is full of burned-out places where brazen Khorne towers are the only edifices left standing, while Tabletop-world's designs harken to a living fantasy world that is still functioning.



Concern: "Why defend a company that doesn't want to be defended?"

Explanation:

For my own entertainment, which is the only reason I do anything in the wargaming world. Can you imagine how unpleasant it would be expending effort posting to forums for games you don't even like?

I find that exploring the background of the armies and storylines in wargames is the most satisfying element to me, as most of my hobby time is spent building and painting armies, a task I'd never get through if I wasn't invested in the background and story of the army. In the case of the Dreadhold, I perceived that many were piling onto perceived faults that don't exist - the failings in the design make perfect sense, based on the background. The prices... well, lets just say I won't be "paying someone" to build a better fortress - if I get the idea in my head that my Bloodreavers just have to have a fortress, I'll be headed back to the old form-core and tacky glue methods I learned in White Dwarf twenty years ago.

In the meantime, I don't imagine my Bloodreavers would even live in that thing, as they're likely nomads crashing in crude tents made of animal and human skins, where blood-crazed wives spend their days grinding bonemeal to feed their blood-crazed children. And when daddy comes home from the war at night to his loving blood-crazed family, his blood-bride hands him the skulls left over from grinding the bonemeal, along with a hot glue gun, and tells him to venture out to that terrifying gargoyle tower thing just over the horizon and dedicate these things to Khorne in the morning. At that point daddy Bloodreaver says "Aww, honey, you're my true blessing of Chaos" and they tenderly headbutt each other. Then they settle in for a night of family games, which go essentially like the hitchhiker scene from Texas Chainsaw Massacre, except the kids all sing "Bloodfrenzy! Bloodfrenzy!" the whole time.

Seriously, there's a reason rents are so reasonable on the Bloodreaver side of town.

Cheers!

Let me ask you a straightforward question - what is the point of this topic? For you to flex your eristic skills? To make fun of GW in a thinly-veiled manner?

Whichever it is, it makes for a colossal waste of time for everybody involved.

 Korinov wrote:

 Klerych wrote:
Hahaha, mate, I really have to ask you - why do you even come to AoS forums at all? I have yet to see a positive post from you in this section and I am slowly starting to think you only come here to whine and spit all over GW, their games and pretty much anything related to that company.

Welcome to the Internet, where opinions different to yours may exist.

If you read my post carefully enough (especially the first sentence) you could've seen that it's not about his different opinion as I respect those even if I disagree, but about his motives to actually bother coming here if he hates everything about it and takes every chance to gak all over the game and it's aspects. I don't go to other games' forums to criticize every single thing and so far that's the vibe I'm getting from his actions, so yeah - before you write up a clever, sarcastic comment actually bother to understand what you're replying to, or else you might put yourself in bad light. :-)

Yes, I know my post sounded passively aggressive, but that's just the most suitable way to reply to smartbutt comments like that. Leave those on 9gag, that's where they belong.

 Klerych wrote:

 Korinov wrote:

 Klerych wrote:
Hahaha, mate, I really have to ask you - why do you even come to AoS forums at all? I have yet to see a positive post from you in this section and I am slowly starting to think you only come here to whine and spit all over GW, their games and pretty much anything related to that company.

Welcome to the Internet, where opinions different to yours may exist.

If you read my post carefully enough (especially the first sentence) you could've seen that it's not about his different opinion as I respect those even if I disagree, but about his motives to actually bother coming here if he hates everything about it and takes every chance to gak all over the game and it's aspects. I don't go to other games' forums to criticize every single thing and so far that's the vibe I'm getting from his actions, so yeah - before you write up a clever, sarcastic comment actually bother to understand what you're replying to, or else you might put yourself in bad light. :-)

Yes, I know my post sounded passively aggressive, but that's just the most suitable way to reply to smartbutt comments like that. Leave those on 9gag, that's where they belong.

Well this also used to be the WFB forum, and appears to still be the place for WFB discussion on dakka dakka. If there's another WFB forum here I must have missed it. Personally I think they should have made a new forum for AoS. its almost completely divorced in every way from WFB, from the fiction to the gameplay. Why did it take over the forum for it?

That's one reason he might still be posting here. It's the reason I drop in.

 argonak wrote:


That's one reason he might still be posting here. It's the reason I drop in.

That's a very fine point, actually, but the same way I could re-word my post asking why does he bother going to AoS-related threads instead of sticking to WFB ones if he's here only for WFB and he hates AoS.

It's literally like those people who go to vegan food videos on youtube just to insult vegan cuisine even though noone forces them to eat it nor watch the video. Or bashing christianity on religious videos. Why? What's the point? That's only wasting theirs and others' time as the former has to write and the latter has to read it. And the only outcome there is is negative. I don't go to rap videos to whine and talk bad about rap music which I dislike - I just don't go there, I don't watch them and I don't comment, because why would I?

Isn't it rather simple. Someone likes WFB, WFB is no more, so he will have less fun in the future. So he does everyone else has less fun too, and posting in AoS threads does just that. IMO it makes perfect sense. The fact that someone may read one of the treads and not go in to AoS is just a bonus.

Makumba wrote:
Isn't it rather simple. Someone likes WFB, WFB is no more, so he will have less fun in the future. So he does everyone else has less fun too, and posting in AoS threads does just that. IMO it makes perfect sense. The fact that someone may read one of the treads and not go in to AoS is just a bonus.

It makes sense. "If I don't enjoy this game, I will make sure noone else does!" - that's exactly what it sounds like and that makes sense, as it's easily distinguishable d-bag behaviour. Now I am not calling him one, but a person who does what I just wrote is one. If I am unhappy then noone else has the right to be happy! And I will do everything to ruin their fun and kill their joy!

Its basic recruitment strategy if you want to get people to play other games. You see it on pretty much every Warhammer forum on the net every day and many facebook groups this is common as well.

auticus wrote:
Its basic recruitment strategy if you want to get people to play other games. You see it on pretty much every Warhammer forum on the net every day and many facebook groups this is common as well.

I doubt it is a conspiracy to steal players - especially when AoS doesn't have a defined player base yet. It is far, far more likely to be insecurity and trying to find justification for one's beliefs through the use of peer pressure. I mean, you think that you are all that and a can of beans, and here comes a game that you can't understand or succeed easily at - it must be the game's fault, right?

 Klerych wrote:

Makumba wrote:
Isn't it rather simple. Someone likes WFB, WFB is no more, so he will have less fun in the future. So he does everyone else has less fun too, and posting in AoS threads does just that. IMO it makes perfect sense. The fact that someone may read one of the treads and not go in to AoS is just a bonus.

It makes sense. "If I don't enjoy this game, I will make sure noone else does!" - that's exactly what it sounds like and that makes sense, as it's easily distinguishable d-bag behaviour. Now I am not calling him one, but a person who does what I just wrote is one.)

"I want to insult another user but don't want to get a mod warning for it". That's your post. If you don't want to insult / offend anyone, just...don't post stuff like that.

Not seeing much point in the topic in general - we already have our merry bunch of GW apologists and having a thread dedicated at apologizing for anything is...strange. But alas, it's a free forum.

 Sigvatr wrote:


Not seeing much point in the topic in general - we already have our merry bunch of GW apologists and having a thread dedicated at apologizing for anything is...strange. But alas, it's a free forum.

Yes, it's a free forum and that's why you and I are able to write these two posts, entirely cut off from the topic on hand. It is also why I have to sift through 2 pages of Warmachine discussion in an AoS discussion thread along with the occasional un-argumented "AoS sucks and you have to be out of your mind to like it". Mod control is surely somewhat lacking IMO, but with different rules come different experience so I'm in no place to complain. After all I could write this, right?

I find the first post a good read. Is the topic needed? Well there are already complains about the model in this thread, so I guess someone who likes it might aswell try to answer to the posted statements/questions even only in the name of comedy/narrative. Not to mention it starts just as a model commentary monologue... I have a little more serious matter with the fortress though. Why is there no way to interact with the walls themselves other than take damage from them? Is there something I'm missing? Is all you can do shoot at the defenders and try to open the door? Where are the teeny-weeny boarding ladders for the sigmarines?

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Klerych wrote:

Makumba wrote:
Isn't it rather simple. Someone likes WFB, WFB is no more, so he will have less fun in the future. So he does everyone else has less fun too, and posting in AoS threads does just that. IMO it makes perfect sense. The fact that someone may read one of the treads and not go in to AoS is just a bonus.

It makes sense. "If I don't enjoy this game, I will make sure noone else does!" - that's exactly what it sounds like and that makes sense, as it's easily distinguishable d-bag behaviour. Now I am not calling him one, but a person who does what I just wrote is one.)

"I want to insult another user but don't want to get a mod warning for it". That's your post. If you don't want to insult / offend anyone, just...don't post stuff like that.

Not seeing much point in the topic in general - we already have our merry bunch of GW apologists and having a thread dedicated at apologizing for anything is...strange. But alas, it's a free forum.

What is wrong in wanting to insult others in a way that does get you a warning and at the same time wanting to feel better about it. Most arguments on all forums, not just dakka, work like that. There is close to zero chance you will ever play against those you don't agree with, so making oneself feel superior is more or less the goal. If on top of that other will seem to be stupid or laugh at it brings an additional incite.

 Sigvatr wrote:

"I want to insult another user but don't want to get a mod warning for it". That's your post. If you don't want to insult / offend anyone, just...don't post stuff like that.

I don't think you are being fair here. I never said that he does that. I just said that people who do it (that one thing I said) are d-bags. That's all. I understand that people on dakka are looking for drama and controversies and I assume that thinly veiled insult would be one, but I never called Swastakowey a d-bag nor did I say that his actions are those of one. That was a separate example not related to his person. I may doubt his reasons to do all the stuff he does but that doesn't mean I think he's a d-bag. I never intended to insult him. Please, refrain from trying to turn this into a flame war when there's no reason to.

 mikhaila wrote:
I just bought the entire line of buildings from Tabletop-world.com

It was less than buying the chaos star fort, and somehow I feel i got a better deal

Sadly, these poor peasants in Croatia just don't know enough to charge GW style prices for their beautiful buildings. That have full interiors. Had no flash or defects. Come assembled and ready to paint.

2nd order going in this week because jealous friends all want them now too.

The Chaos Dreadhold is cool. I just don't want to pay for one, and even painting it would be a chore because I'm not sure how it even fits into games or how I'd use it.

Wow, amazing stuff, thanks for mentioning them

The regret of not buying Gardens of Morr still cuts deep ㅜㅜ

Yeah, all this does is make me sad that I never got around to getting a copy of Witchfate Tor.

 Klerych wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
I just want to point out detailed is not a good word for this. Cluttered is more accurate to describe this fort.

The best fort money can buy is a by paying someone with talent to custom make a fort tailored to your tastes and painted to the theme you need. I wonder how much cheaper ti would be to pay someone to make a better fort than it would be to buy this junk from GW?

Ultimately it is up to personal taste how cool this thing is, but I would not in any way call this good value for money.

A few things I do find silly about it, is the lack of air defense, the exposed pathways to the towers and the gates don't seem sensible compared to forts I have seen.

Hahaha, mate, I really have to ask you - why do you even come to AoS forums at all? I have yet to see a positive post from you in this section and I am slowly starting to think you only come here to whine and spit all over GW, their games and pretty much anything related to that company.

You're saying it's cluttered, but "cluttered" is a personal opinion and even if it was, cluttered detail is, well, a lot of detail so, yes, he was right saying it's detailed.

I probably agree with you on the custom-made fort and value for money as customs are often cheaper if they're simple, although on the other hand if someone likes this particular aesthetic (or just the sheer amount of detail the plastic kits offer), no craftsman is going to ever make by hand a model like the Dreadhold for that cost. As simple as that. It'd take ages to sculpt all those skulls, even if he used a sculpting putty stamp with skulls, it's still not going to be the same. So for people who like this particular stylistic, this is the way to go and no amount of your personal opinion on those models is going to change it. Not to mention the fact that ordering a custom is going to take much longer and is more prone to failures on craftsman's side than just buying the kit and painting it.

As for your last point about no air defense... very few medieval castles had those - the walls were exposed on the top. The only issue I have with the pathways to the towers is the lack of guard rails/fortified sides to protect those going in and out during the battle, but then again we're arguing about a fortress that is supposed to be manned by forces of the guy who doesn't believe in shooting. Putting any khornate model on the wall is outright going to be a waste of models as they have no ranged weaponry whatsoever if we're looking at it this way. Not to mention that even if we took it into account, khorne's followers aren't really bright nor reasonable, the wall is probably there for them to not get shot to pieces as enemy army approaches so they could just open the gate and surge out last moment. The whole fort idea would make more sense if Chaos had ranged units. Inb4 Chaos Warriors with huge bows.

I complemented that awesome Giant Batrep someone did in the AOS section. Besides it's fun to spend time doing my thing here while I do spreadsheets.

Really? A skull is detailed? If you look at the detail, it's not really detailed. It's just skulls and cracks copied and pasted over the whole thing. I didn't think smooth almost identical skulls placed right next to each other was considered detail. Nothing here is exceptionally detailed, it's just cluttered with below averagely done items (skulls) and well more skulls. Also clutter means to "cover or fill (something) with an untidy collection of things." and well in this case yes it is cluttered with skulls, not detailed in skulls. But yea my opinion, but I think cluttered describes it better than detailed. Detailed implies art...

The time it takes for some one to custom build one (it's not that hard) will probably be similar to the time it takes for you to do a reasonable paint job on this fort because of the "detail", there is no real reason not to unless you really like skulls, like like skulls.

This is Fantasy not medieval... in fantasy you kind of need air defense to stop... you know, the jet pack space marines in Fantasy for example... If these guys are dumb enough to build forts like this then I have a hard time believing them to be a dangerous enemy at all and any slightly competent army would be able to walk over them. Building forts in vital areas is a basic strategy commanders use even today.


I just want to point out, AOS is the worst game I have ever seen. It's like those bad movies (like Birdemic). So making fun of it is kind of why it's there even if it took itself seriously. Plus the game is so easy to pick apart. Honestly I can come to this section of the forum and face palm at what people try do to make this game sound ok. I haven't had this much fun on the forum in a while to be honest.

 Swastakowey wrote:
I just want to point out, AOS is the worst game I have ever seen.

I, for one, am shocked. If only you'd told us before.

 Sqorgar wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
I just want to point out, AOS is the worst game I have ever seen.

I, for one, am shocked. If only you'd told us before.

Yea, Gold Fish memory is a huge problem these days.

 Swastakowey wrote:

Detailed implies art...

This depends on your understanding of detail. If you're understanding is that detail means how much the artists made sure that the model is in tone with/corresponds to/is consistent with/matches some other, external concept it is one thing. If you consider detail to be the amount of shaping or time the artist gives to certain parts of his piece so they have a certain effect on the beholder, it is another. I can see you certainly don't mean that detail is how many small spheres the artist can fit in a given area. At the moment, your statement for me is like the mystical words art critiques whisper when they guide me through the town gallery - it means nothing to the utter pleb that I am.