Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ok, my confusion comes with this:

FMC wrote:SPECIAL RULES
In addition to the special rules that all Monstrous Creatures have, Flying Monstrous Creatures also have the Jink and Vector Strike special rules.

and

FMC wrote:GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

Comes across this

Jump Units wrote:SPECIAL RULES
Jump units have the Bulky and Deep Strike special rules.

Just to be Sure. FMC by default DOESNT HAVE DEEP STRIKE. right?

Just in case you're wondering where the responses are, I bet most people here are thinking like me "if it's worded like that, then you're right, but I need to check my rulebook at home to make sure, because I'm pretty sure I've seen players deep strike flyers".

By the rules you've posted, FMC aren't Jump Monstrous Creatures, and therefore do not have Deep Strike, even though they can Glide during the movement phase, which is moved just like a Jump Monstrous Creature. In other words, it doesn't have it when choosing whether or not to Deep Strike - it's only treated like a Jump Monstrous Creature when it moves.

At the same time, that seems pretty darn weird, as it feels like FMC's should be able to Deep Strike. This is really where I'd like to look at my rulebook to see whether Flyers (the vehicles) can deep strike. If they can, then it'd be my opinion that this is yet another case of GW messing up some rules. The RAW would still be "no, can't deep strike", but I'd believe the RAI to be "yup, can deep strike".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay, just double-checking, and no, Flyers (the vehicles) don't have Deep Strike either, so I'm pretty confident that you're correct, and Flying Monstrous Creatures CANNOT Deep Strike simply because they're FMCs.

Yes, that's what I thought, just wanted to make sure about it...

The "move like Jump" but yea, that's just when you have to move (Movement phase, run, charge) Nothing to treat it like jump when in reserves

The issue is as follows.
1. Gliding and Swooping FMCs move like Jump units.
2. Per the rules for Jump units, any model that is defined as moving like Jump is, for all rules purposes a Jump model. (Not exactly, but for this purpose, close enough)
3. FMCs do not declare a movement type until such a time as they actually move.

It depends on your interpretation of the rules.

Pro DS: They only have two sorts of movement and are described as Jump MC in both cases, which grants DS.

Con DS: They are yet to select a flight mode and the timing passes when they could DS.

The RAI is that they can't DS with the DS rule, or else Chaos Daemons wouldn't have the DS rule.

I think it makes perfect sense from the rules given and in general thought that a FMC can deepstrike in (in Gliding mode). Which means you can get shot up pretty good if that is what you desire.

My reasoning for this is i forget where but i have seen a batrep on miniwargaming where they deepstruck a flyer in hover mode.

And they never get anything wrong....=P

Echo0455 wrote:
I think it makes perfect sense from the rules given and in general thought that a FMC can deepstrike in (in Gliding mode). Which means you can get shot up pretty good if that is what you desire.

Rulebook, Flying Monstrous Creatures - Deployment wrote:If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.

This applies to FMC that have deep strike (such as Daemons), but doesn't really give us any indication if all of them are meant to be able to.
Most Flyers had their Deep Strike removed, so mostly only FW flyers still have DS.

Normal FMCs do not have DS (Tyranids)
Bizarre FMCs do have DS (CSM/Daemons)

In all cases a FMC moves like a Jump unit. Therefore it can DS like a Jump unit.

Fragile wrote:
In all cases a FMC moves like a Jump unit. Therefore it can DS like a Jump unit.

Counter argument: only Swooping and Gliding FMCs are described as moving like Jump, neither of which an FMC in reserve is. Therefore FMCs in reserve are not described as moving like Jump at the moment necessary to be able to Deep strike.

Fragile wrote:
In all cases a FMC moves like a Jump unit. Therefore it can DS like a Jump unit.

move is different from being that kind of unit. A Wraithknight, being a Jump Monstrous Creature, can DS. A Hive Tyrant, being a Flying Monstrous Creature, only moves like one when Gliding, but it's not a JMC itself - so no DS.

If your argument was correct, then a Y'vhara, which moves as a FMC when it does the 24" move, would get Hard to Hit and Skyfire rules - which it doesn't.

 Vector Strike wrote:

Fragile wrote:
In all cases a FMC moves like a Jump unit. Therefore it can DS like a Jump unit.

move is different from being that kind of unit. A Wraithknight, being a Jump Monstrous Creature, can DS. A Hive Tyrant, being a Flying Monstrous Creature, only moves like one when Gliding, but it's not a JMC itself - so no DS.

If your argument was correct, then a Y'vhara, which moves as a FMC when it does the 24" move, would get Hard to Hit and Skyfire rules - which it doesn't.

See, now THIS I don't understand. My entire region plays that fmc's can deepstrike, and that the Y'vhara CAN skyfire and is hard to hit.

For FMC's, it is said that a flying monstrous creature is treated exactly like a jump monstrous creature with the following rules and exceptions: Yadda yadda yadda... and the rulebook states that if a unit is described as moving like a certain unit, then it gets all the relevant special rules that that unit type receives as well. Just because the fmc must declare how it is moving (via walking, jumping (gliding), or using its special movement (swooping)), does not take away that in any case the monstrous creature is treated as a jump monstrous creature.

I do not see any possible way that a wraithknight, who is a jump mc, can deepstrike while an fmc, who is also a jump mc but can move even faster, cannot.

The Y'Vhara suit DOES gain the hard to hit, and Skyfire special rules unless explicitly stated in its rules entry, because it moves exactly like an fmc (with certain exceptions), and the rulebook explicitly states that it gains those rules.

Is a FMC a jump mc? Yes, and it has additional rules regarding choosing flight modes. This choice does not change the fact that it is still a jump mc. In the gliding and swooping modes, the rulebook restate that it moves exactly like a jump mc for the purposes of whether or not you may pass over enemy and friendly models freely. Not that the fmc "forgets" how to fly if you aren't directly looking at it (read: off the table in reserves/ongoing reserves).

Flying Daemon Princes have the deepstrike special rule because they are Daemons. Not because they are special snowflakes. The Daemon prince has it on his profile because he will be able to deepstrike regardless of if he had wings or not. The faq's that detailed what flight mode an fmc enters play in used the flying Daemon Prince as the example, but it is an arbitrary example. GW could have just as easily chosen a Tyranid Harpy for the example and everything would have been exactly the same.

This frustrating argument was cleaned up with the drop of the new addition, you people are just too butt-hurt about it to give them something nice. Hell, they already got need since they can't assault after changing modes anymore.

Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
- Jump Units

This is what grants Units that 'move like Jump Units' the Special Rules of Jump Units.
Can someone quote the Rule I am over-looking which grants any Unit that 'moves like another' permission to use it's Special Rules?

JinxDragon wrote: Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
- Jump Units

This is what grants Units that 'move like Jump Units' the Special Rules of Jump Units.
Can someone quote the Rule I am over-looking which grants any Unit that 'moves like another' permission to use it's Special Rules?

The Counter-argument would be:

Happyjew wrote:

Fragile wrote:
In all cases a FMC moves like a Jump unit. Therefore it can DS like a Jump unit.

Counter argument: only Swooping and Gliding FMCs are described as moving like Jump, neither of which an FMC in reserve is. Therefore FMCs in reserve are not described as moving like Jump at the moment necessary to be able to Deep strike.

Not saying I'm agreeing with it as yet, just that is how everything is defined.

It's a bit silly, but that is how it is written.

All that being said, I'm fine with the FMC having Deep Strike regardless.

Seriously though, why would they put a rule in the rulebook defining what special rules a model receives if it moves as another type if they didn't expect something like the Y'Vhara to exist. It is literally right there to see.

If you move as a certain type, you get the special rules.

Y'Vhara and fmcs move as a certain type.

Can you quote the actual Rule that states 'If you move as a certain type, you get the special rules' please?
Jump has a clause like that, but just because I am looking for the 'default' Rule that you keep referring to.

JinxDragon wrote:
Can you quote the actual Rule that states 'If you move as a certain type, you get the special rules' please?
Jump has a clause like that, but just because I am looking for the 'default' Rule that you keep referring to.

Last sentence of the second paragraph of the Jump unit type, right before Skyborne.

That clause is specific to Models that "move like Jump Units," thus it only applies to Models that move like Jump Units.
Mr ghoti has repetitively stated that any Model moving like another Unit Type gains the Rules of that Unit Type, I would simply like to know the exact wording of this Rule so I can Ctrl-F.

Example to clarify what I am looking for:
I have theoretical infantry Unit with a Special Rule allowing it to move like a Jet-Pack Unit for a single Turn.
What Rule would I use to grant that Infantry Unit Relentless for the Turn?

Charistoph wrote:

JinxDragon wrote: Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
- Jump Units

This is what grants Units that 'move like Jump Units' the Special Rules of Jump Units.
Can someone quote the Rule I am over-looking which grants any Unit that 'moves like another' permission to use it's Special Rules?

The Counter-argument would be:

Happyjew wrote:

Fragile wrote:
In all cases a FMC moves like a Jump unit. Therefore it can DS like a Jump unit.

Counter argument: only Swooping and Gliding FMCs are described as moving like Jump, neither of which an FMC in reserve is. Therefore FMCs in reserve are not described as moving like Jump at the moment necessary to be able to Deep strike.

Not saying I'm agreeing with it as yet, just that is how everything is defined.

It's a bit silly, but that is how it is written.

All that being said, I'm fine with the FMC having Deep Strike regardless.

Let me just say that I do not agree with the position I've taken above. I'm just playing Beelzebub's campaigner. As far as I'm concerned, since FMCs can only move in one of two ways, and both methods move like Jump units, then FMCs are (for the purposes of having Deep Strike) a Jump unit.

Yes, I agree with the can't DS. (even though I play Tyranid and would love to DS the FMC)

You can't place in Deep Strike Reserves a unit without the DS rule... and the FMC does not move like Jump MC before selecting Flying mode. It may have the DS rule later...

But let say, the FMC flyies off the board, at that moment it is moving like a Jump MC and would have the rules... so, it can enter Ongoing Deep Strike Reserves?

 Happyjew wrote:
Let me just say that I do not agree with the position I've taken above. I'm just playing Beelzebub's campaigner. As far as I'm concerned, since FMCs can only move in one of two ways, and both methods move like Jump units, then FMCs are (for the purposes of having Deep Strike) a Jump unit.

While it is good to establish your feelings on it, it still does not change how things are written. As you have pointed out, the simple fact is that the movement type of an FMC is not defined until deployed and there is no status of movement style while in Reserves, so until then, they are not moving like JMCs and so do not have access to those rules.

And knowing how things are written make for an easier time when convincing your group to House Rule it, AND so visitors know where they stand.

JinxDragon wrote:
That clause is specific to Models that "move like Jump Units," thus it only applies to Models that move like Jump Units.
Mr ghoti has repetitively stated that any Model moving like another Unit Type gains the Rules of that Unit Type, I would simply like to know the exact wording of this Rule so I can Ctrl-F.

Example to clarify what I am looking for:
I have theoretical infantry Unit with a Special Rule allowing it to move like a Jet-Pack Unit for a single Turn.
What Rule would I use to grant that Infantry Unit Relentless for the Turn?

To be fair, he has been referencing a certain unit type, and that certain unit type does do this, even though other unit types do not have that same advantage.

Mr ghoti wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:

Fragile wrote:
In all cases a FMC moves like a Jump unit. Therefore it can DS like a Jump unit.

move is different from being that kind of unit. A Wraithknight, being a Jump Monstrous Creature, can DS. A Hive Tyrant, being a Flying Monstrous Creature, only moves like one when Gliding, but it's not a JMC itself - so no DS.

If your argument was correct, then a Y'vhara, which moves as a FMC when it does the 24" move, would get Hard to Hit and Skyfire rules - which it doesn't.

See, now THIS I don't understand. My entire region plays that fmc's can deepstrike, and that the Y'vhara CAN skyfire and is hard to hit.

For FMC's, it is said that a flying monstrous creature is treated exactly like a jump monstrous creature with the following rules and exceptions: Yadda yadda yadda... and the rulebook states that if a unit is described as moving like a certain unit, then it gets all the relevant special rules that that unit type receives as well. Just because the fmc must declare how it is moving (via walking, jumping (gliding), or using its special movement (swooping)), does not take away that in any case the monstrous creature is treated as a jump monstrous creature.

I do not see any possible way that a wraithknight, who is a jump mc, can deepstrike while an fmc, who is also a jump mc but can move even faster, cannot.

The Y'Vhara suit DOES gain the hard to hit, and Skyfire special rules unless explicitly stated in its rules entry, because it moves exactly like an fmc (with certain exceptions), and the rulebook explicitly states that it gains those rules.

Is a FMC a jump mc? Yes, and it has additional rules regarding choosing flight modes. This choice does not change the fact that it is still a jump mc. In the gliding and swooping modes, the rulebook restate that it moves exactly like a jump mc for the purposes of whether or not you may pass over enemy and friendly models freely. Not that the fmc "forgets" how to fly if you aren't directly looking at it (read: off the table in reserves/ongoing reserves).

Flying Daemon Princes have the deepstrike special rule because they are Daemons. Not because they are special snowflakes. The Daemon prince has it on his profile because he will be able to deepstrike regardless of if he had wings or not. The faq's that detailed what flight mode an fmc enters play in used the flying Daemon Prince as the example, but it is an arbitrary example. GW could have just as easily chosen a Tyranid Harpy for the example and everything would have been exactly the same.

This frustrating argument was cleaned up with the drop of the new addition, you people are just too butt-hurt about it to give them something nice. Hell, they already got need since they can't assault after changing modes anymore.

Never said Daemon Princes were special snowflakes - said they were special (because they have the Daemon rule). And I'm not butt-hurt about anything.

Alas, your line of thought seems more plausible than mine.

I still think it does not have DS.

It have the special rules for Jump Unit Movement, that are Skyborne and the reroll to charging movement and gaining hammer of wrath (redundant for a MC) if charging with jump pack.

I still think "moving like X" is just "treat it like X for movement"

Mr ghoti wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:

Fragile wrote:
In all cases a FMC moves like a Jump unit. Therefore it can DS like a Jump unit.

move is different from being that kind of unit. A Wraithknight, being a Jump Monstrous Creature, can DS. A Hive Tyrant, being a Flying Monstrous Creature, only moves like one when Gliding, but it's not a JMC itself - so no DS.

If your argument was correct, then a Y'vhara, which moves as a FMC when it does the 24" move, would get Hard to Hit and Skyfire rules - which it doesn't.

See, now THIS I don't understand. My entire region plays that fmc's can deepstrike, and that the Y'vhara CAN skyfire and is hard to hit.

For FMC's, it is said that a flying monstrous creature is treated exactly like a jump monstrous creature with the following rules and exceptions: Yadda yadda yadda... and the rulebook states that if a unit is described as moving like a certain unit, then it gets all the relevant special rules that that unit type receives as well. Just because the fmc must declare how it is moving (via walking, jumping (gliding), or using its special movement (swooping)), does not take away that in any case the monstrous creature is treated as a jump monstrous creature.

I do not see any possible way that a wraithknight, who is a jump mc, can deepstrike while an fmc, who is also a jump mc but can move even faster, cannot.

The Y'Vhara suit DOES gain the hard to hit, and Skyfire special rules unless explicitly stated in its rules entry, because it moves exactly like an fmc (with certain exceptions), and the rulebook explicitly states that it gains those rules.

Is a FMC a jump mc? Yes, and it has additional rules regarding choosing flight modes. This choice does not change the fact that it is still a jump mc. In the gliding and swooping modes, the rulebook restate that it moves exactly like a jump mc for the purposes of whether or not you may pass over enemy and friendly models freely. Not that the fmc "forgets" how to fly if you aren't directly looking at it (read: off the table in reserves/ongoing reserves).

Flying Daemon Princes have the deepstrike special rule because they are Daemons. Not because they are special snowflakes. The Daemon prince has it on his profile because he will be able to deepstrike regardless of if he had wings or not. The faq's that detailed what flight mode an fmc enters play in used the flying Daemon Prince as the example, but it is an arbitrary example. GW could have just as easily chosen a Tyranid Harpy for the example and everything would have been exactly the same.

This frustrating argument was cleaned up with the drop of the new addition, you people are just too butt-hurt about it to give them something nice. Hell, they already got need since they can't assault after changing modes anymore.

There are several Chaos Daemons that are Flying Monstrous Creatures by default, yet have the Deep Strike rule. Examples include the Bloodthirster and Lord of Change.

A FMC moves like a Jump Monstrous Creature when it Glides or Swoops and there are four instances where it can choose either one of these modes.

1) When it is deployed on the table, it starts in Glide mode. Obvious fault in DS this FMC is that it's already on the table.
2) When it enters from Reserves, you must declare if it is arriving by Gliding or Swooping. Fault with this is that Reserves does not equal DS Reserve.
3) When it enters from Ongoing Reserves. Fault is that Ongoing is not the same as DS Reserve and you can't go into DS Reserve if you didn't begin in it.
4) When it enters from DS Reserve, it has to be Swooping. This ticks all the boxes for DSing FMC's.

The issue behind why this argument crops up again and again, is down to the timing of choosing the flight mode. You can't choose a Flight mode while in Reserves, only when arriving, so at no point are you given permission to be treated as a Jump MC while in reserves (as you can't select a flight mode that permits you to move like it). Since you can't select a flight mode, you can't choose to DS a FMC in, without actually having the DS rule written in a FMC's profile. This is the Con side.

The Pro side is what you stated, it moves like a Jump MC in both flight modes, so automatically has the DS rule, as per Jump rules.

How people choose to play it should be agreed beforehand.