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Reading the background, I often find hints that the Emperor's alliance with Mars (in effect creating a subservient parallel Human empire) was only intended to be temporary.

The culture of the Mechinarium did not fit in with his vision for Humanity, and the alliance was one of convenience in order to avoid a civil war, and to gain access to their technology and shipyards. In essence, it was a shortcut, potentially accelerating the Great Crusade by hundreds of years by not getting bogged down in civil conflict, or having to built the infrastructure of Empire from scratch. But making Mars comply was never off his to-do list entirely.

If the Horus Heresy hadn't happened, would we just have had the Emperor start a war with the Forge Worlds? Mars had plenty of secessionists too, unhappy with the Imperial way of doing things, but as they all joined Horus and were forced out the Imperium that way, the Heresy actually made the alliance stronger as only Imperial loyalists remained on Mars.

So, was an eventual war with Mars part of the Emperor's plan? Would it have been inevitable had the Heresy not occured?

Bear in mind, if Chaos had not shown its hand, that in combination with the Tyranids and Necrons not having really emerged would have meant Humanity would have had few external threats, meaning less pressure to be united, and more leeway to turn their attentions inwards.

Probably. Wouldn't be the first time people have gone up against Mars.

Theres always someone else that wants the power/sick of being stomped into the dirt.

Its a bit hard to start a revolution these days though. The IOM is so big, and they'd blame it on khaos.

The Emp seeing the future is a bit like Leto Atreides used to see it. Like a boat in a ocean. Top of the wave he could see for centuries. Bottom of the wave, he couldn't see 6ft behind himself.

If the Horus Heresy wouldn't have happened, the access to the webway on earth would have gained great prosperity and a way to gain knowledge for the mechanicus, No, civil war was imminent even without Horus, Lorgar would have been the initiator if Horus would have defied the demonic influence.

Yes, it's hinted that the mechanicum were already laying the ground work before the heresy broke out.

Well, if Zeth's (Mechanicum)work on getting knowledge from the Warp was anything to go by (not to mention here secular beliefs), the Emperor likely would have slowly wormed the Imperial Truth into the AdMech.

Really? That's pretty interesting. Do you have any more info?

I knew the Emperor wasn't happy with the compromise of being venerated as a God by them, and they weren't happy at having limits put on certain research, but I didn't know either side had actually put any preparation in.

Which begs the question - would an Imperium/Mechanarium civil war have been better or worse for Humanity? The Imperium would have all their Legions, but the Mechanarium would have the Titan Legions and a strangehold on weapons/ship production.

It could potentially have been more destructive than the Heresy, meaning if the Heresy inadvertently outed the Martian secessionists before they could rally all the Forge Worlds by allying with them, Horus actually saved Humanity from a greater conflict by accident.

Well if you think about it a lot of the legions that rebelled had other motives.
Iron warriors wanted fame for all of their battles and got none(grown away from the emperor)
Death Guard-did not like that the emperor stole his hard earned victory and stopped following terran traditions from his legion or code.
Nigh lords-evil in general
Horus felt abandoned by his father. Might not have rebelled as well
alpha legion????
World bearers-wanted to worship a religion and were humiliated that the emperor scorned them.
World eater-I don't know
emperors children-I am unsure of his motive I do know they wanted to be perfect that's about it
thousand sons did not want to join but were using illegal psychic stuff. Never would have rebelled probably they only did because the emperor thought they were the traitors not horus.
The mechanicus probably tensions were growing because a lot of them still believe in just the old god. Seeing the emperor as a slaver more than a god. Tensions were growing so rebellion probably eventually the fabricator general did not like the emperor either. (I am aware that the mechanicus still worships the Omnissiah, but they believe that the emperor was a form or representative of the Omnissiah.)
I would say eventually some legions would have turned.
Now the rebellion would not have been as big or organized had horus not joined he was the most brilliant commander on legions. As he knew all of their weakness and strengths, and could use them the emperor would have taken actions against anyone else to be honest. Horus was the only one who could have had such an impact.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hierophant wrote:
Really? That's pretty interesting. Do you have any more info?

I knew the Emperor wasn't happy with the compromise of being venerated as a God by them, and they weren't happy at having limits put on certain research, but I didn't know either side had actually put any preparation in.

Which begs the question - would an Imperium/Mechanarium civil war have been better or worse for Humanity? The Imperium would have all their Legions, but the Mechanarium would have the Titan Legions and a strangehold on weapons/ship production.

It could potentially have been more destructive than the Heresy, meaning if the Heresy inadvertently outed the Martian secessionists before they could rally all the Forge Worlds by allying with them, Horus actually saved Humanity from a greater conflict by accident.

The fabricator general made a small minority a majority or rival to emperor supporters. I know that everyone had already chosen sides including titans even before a rebellion although I don't think they would have taken action on their own without more support. I looked for something that can explain this decently in depth with you read this from Dissension in the Ranks point and own I read through it for you just to make sure it had the info.here is a link now also don't trust this source it is okay, but not great it's the quickest thing you can quickly read to get a brief rundown. I would say even though I am not an expert on the topic that wiki is not a great place for all information. http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Mechanicus

Hierophant wrote:
Really? That's pretty interesting. Do you have any more info?

I knew the Emperor wasn't happy with the compromise of being venerated as a God by them, and they weren't happy at having limits put on certain research, but I didn't know either side had actually put any preparation in.

Which begs the question - would an Imperium/Mechanarium civil war have been better or worse for Humanity? The Imperium would have all their Legions, but the Mechanarium would have the Titan Legions and a strangehold on weapons/ship production.

It could potentially have been more destructive than the Heresy, meaning if the Heresy inadvertently outed the Martian secessionists before they could rally all the Forge Worlds by allying with them, Horus actually saved Humanity from a greater conflict by accident.

afaik, the only information of a Tech-Priest following Imperial Truth was Zeth in Mechanicum. They might have slipped in others in the newer HH novels, but I haven't read anything past Unremembered Empire, so I don't know.

Yes. You don't suddenly add over a million planets to your Empire without a weeeee bit of social unrest.

This isn't about social unrest being inevitable in a large empire if you read the OP. It's about whether or not having an empire culturally split down the middle from the very start was sustainable, and whether either partner was planning to stab the other in the back before the Heresy changed everything. The note about it emerging after the Great Crusade is less about the size of the empire, and more about the lack of external enemies.

It also makes me wonder what percentage of the Imperium's population, terrain and economy are under Martian rather than Terran cultural influence. Forge Worlds are likelyonly a relatively small percentage of planets, but they are also likely to be very highly populated and militarised, and control a massive proportion of the Imperium's production, where as the Imperium consists of many Feral and Feudal worlds that are of little use or importance comparatively.

The more I think about it, the more I reckon the Heresy probably prevented an even worse scenario for Humanity. It gave Humanity an eternal external enemy, forcing political unity, and cleared out the Martian secessionists by luring them into playing their hand too early. After the HH, Earth became more Martian (religious veneration and tech susperstition) and Mars become more Terran (sticking to the dogmas of Human unity and bans on certain tech, such as AI) meaning further conflict is vanishingly unlikely.