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In the process of writing army lists for my own 40k homebrew, I encountered a problem with how to establish CSM as a faction. With allies in play (and they are in my rules, just subdued a lot), IoM armies are able to afford over specializing at the cost of not having an answer to some counters. But xenos and chaos army lists need to be more stand- alone. So I attempted to essentially cram the Renegades and Heretics army list AND CSM into the same army list, but hot dam is it getting crowded. The special rules and unique wargear selections I wrote for Space marines are two pages long. I tried to do the same, and its three pages long and I haven't gotten to anything interesting like traitor legions or cool daemon weapons.

I wonder what the best way to approach this is now because it feels like I'm trying to fit too much into one list. I like the cultist options available in the CSM codex and I love the way FW expands on that in IA 13. But would it serve the game better for Renegades and Heretics to be a separate army list from CSM?

Three different army lists. I mean thats kind of why they do it, on top of the usual sell three books instead of one thing

Chaos special rules can have a lot of garbage in them. You should write around most "if this then this" style rules.

You should also thinks about marks / dedications not being purchasable upgrades. The implication of buying marks is, at root, that if you want to be dedicated to a god you need to bring 15% fewer soldiers than units that aren't dedicated, because that's what points mean. It's also fairly far from fluffy. To Earn the mark of a god, a marine should be in a cult. The '99 codex worked that way and I think it was very nice.

Three pages of special rules? Someone could convince me to play that, but on my part, I would never come to you and ask you to play a fandex with three pages of special rules.

Remove all random dice roll

pelicaniforce wrote:
Chaos special rules can have a lot of garbage in them. You should write around most "if this then this" style rules.

You should also thinks about marks / dedications not being purchasable upgrades. The implication of buying marks is, at root, that if you want to be dedicated to a god you need to bring 15% fewer soldiers than units that aren't dedicated, because that's what points mean. It's also fairly far from fluffy. To Earn the mark of a god, a marine should be in a cult. The '99 codex worked that way and I think it was very nice.

Three pages of special rules? Someone could convince me to play that, but on my part, I would never come to you and ask you to play a fandex with three pages of special rules.

How does one earn god marks other than by paying points? How would undedicated units be balanced against that?

I understand what you mean but how does one handle god dedication if not through upgrades? Or am I not understanding properly?

And to be fair, the way I'm writing this game, the army lists will have to be totally rewritten to be compatible. The current CSM codex has about three pages of unique wargear and special rules; I wanted it to be smaller, but couldn't fit everything I wanted in without writing in ridiculously small font

 Powerfisting wrote:

pelicaniforce wrote:
Chaos special rules can have a lot of garbage in them. You should write around most "if this then this" style rules.

You should also thinks about marks / dedications not being purchasable upgrades. The implication of buying marks is, at root, that if you want to be dedicated to a god you need to bring 15% fewer soldiers than units that aren't dedicated, because that's what points mean. It's also fairly far from fluffy. To Earn the mark of a god, a marine should be in a cult. The '99 codex worked that way and I think it was very nice.

Three pages of special rules? Someone could convince me to play that, but on my part, I would never come to you and ask you to play a fandex with three pages of special rules.

How does one earn god marks other than by paying points? How would undedicated units be balanced against that?

I understand what you mean but how does one handle god dedication if not through upgrades? Or am I not understanding properly?

And to be fair, the way I'm writing this game, the army lists will have to be totally rewritten to be compatible. The current CSM codex has about three pages of unique wargear and special rules; I wanted it to be smaller, but couldn't fit everything I wanted in without writing in ridiculously small font

You could try either tying god allegiance to a detachment/formation bonus or implement "Legion Tactics."

Make cult units, legion units and renegade units

Cults get more warp stuff, Legions get well legion type chapter tactics and renegade units get cheaper weaponry

Boom everything you could want in your CSM codex

GAdvance wrote:
Make cult units, legion units and renegade units

Cults get more warp stuff, Legions get well legion type chapter tactics and renegade units get cheaper weaponry

Boom everything you could want in your CSM codex

Where would things like Word Bearers and Thousand Sons fall on the "warp stuff" versus "legion stuff" spectrum? Also, why would renegades get cheaper weaponry? I could see them having access to relatively new or hard to maintain gear because they've recently fallen, but I'm not sure why going chaotic would make it easier to find meltaguns or rhinos.

Word Bearers and thousand sons would be more Warp related now i'd say, neither operate as their original legions used to, legion rules would make more sense for Night Lords or Iron Warriors

Renegades just get cheaper weaponry or newer weaponry to balance things out, they don't have the special rules of any of the other SM books right now but are also the most likely to have just left their chapters so probably looted on the way out

It's not perfect but i think each unit having the option to join a Cult, Legion or be Renegades (some units with less or no other options obviously) would make all the chaos marine styles available to players

The first and biggest mistake people make when doing their home brew chaos is this, they base it off the current chaos dex, to do chaos marines properly you need to scrap utterly the entire chaos codex and work from the ground up.

A chaos space marine unit for example is still based around the codex space marine tactical sqaud, this is an error and has been since 3rd, chaos space marine should start with a base line of normal marines, but option wise should be nothing like them.

For example.

Chaos space marine unit.
Stats stay the same, 12pts per marine.
Covenant of khorne: prefured enemy, rage, counter attack.
Etc.
Weapons: as current chaos marine.
Each unit may take a specialism.
Support sqaud: the entire unit must upgrade to take x special weapon.
Despoilers: entire unit must swap bolter for a close combat weapon.
Etc.

Army selection:
Renegade: x units are 0-1, land speeder etc. Mauler field etc.
So a mix of codex and chaos.


I could go on but the main point is that the last few chaos books fail in every aspect at representing chaos as a force, and should be disregarded when writing a new one.

Chaos support squads from legions are just Havocs and despoilers can be made by just giving everyone a CCW, the chaos codex has seem deep rooted problems now but it's not as poorly written and seperate to the fluff as you make out, problem is it doesn't make all of it's options viable not that it doesn't have options

 Formosa wrote:
The first and biggest mistake people make when doing their home brew chaos is this, they base it off the current chaos dex, to do chaos marines properly you need to scrap utterly the entire chaos codex and work from the ground up.

A chaos space marine unit for example is still based around the codex space marine tactical sqaud, this is an error and has been since 3rd, chaos space marine should start with a base line of normal marines, but option wise should be nothing like them.

For example.

Chaos space marine unit.
Stats stay the same, 12pts per marine.
Covenant of khorne: prefured enemy, rage, counter attack.
Etc.
Weapons: as current chaos marine.
Each unit may take a specialism.
Support sqaud: the entire unit must upgrade to take x special weapon.
Despoilers: entire unit must swap bolter for a close combat weapon.
Etc.

Army selection:
Renegade: x units are 0-1, land speeder etc. Mauler field etc.
So a mix of codex and chaos.


I could go on but the main point is that the last few chaos books fail in every aspect at representing chaos as a force, and should be disregarded when writing a new one.

Well, I see a lot of "Every man takes the same weapon" kind of upgrades in that, which works for the HH. But by the 41st millenium, the old legions and any SM chapters that go renegade are a lot less organized. In the HH when the legions needed lascannons, they got 10 of them because they had the resources to do that. current warbands, and arguably, some chapters don't really have the resources for that. I think its reasonable for each model to be able to have its own load out options independent of the rest of the squad.

That said, I see what you mean about not basing it on the current codex. The first thing I did (and I did this for SM and it kind of worked) was port everything ( names, rules, points etc.) over from the codex verbatim and only changed things if they were totally incompatible with my system. I'm erring towards a covenant style set of upgrades where the entire squad pays so many points for all the rules/ stats for a particular cult unit. But some things bother me:

1) for most gods, having a covenant style upgrade and a mark for that god is redundant. the difference between a berzerker and a MoK CSM is a silly distinction. But in my mind, Thousand sons who are literally dust occupying a suit of power armor is very different from a CSM who is blessed by Tzeentch. I kind of want to make Thousand sons their own unit and have a weaker upgrade for normal CSM to be marked by Tzeentch. I'd like someone's thoughts on this.

2) What is the real value of a single, un-upgraded CSM? everyone hates 13ppm CSM and seems to think reducing their cost by 1 point will make them immeasurably better. I would propose the opposite: CSM are not weak for their points, loyalists are strong for their points; What if CSM were 13ppm still but loyalist marines were 15ppm?

Because nobody takes Tactical Marines at 14 points a model now. I'd say 12 is fine for a unit that doesn't actually have special rules. Hell, Sisters can be more durable around the same price, depending on weaponry of course.

Tac marine are probably only weak because upgrades to weapons that kill them very well are so cheap, i think 14 pts is a fair amount for them and probably wouldn't mind 12 pts for a chaos marine

 Powerfisting wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
The first and biggest mistake people make when doing their home brew chaos is this, they base it off the current chaos dex, to do chaos marines properly you need to scrap utterly the entire chaos codex and work from the ground up.

A chaos space marine unit for example is still based around the codex space marine tactical sqaud, this is an error and has been since 3rd, chaos space marine should start with a base line of normal marines, but option wise should be nothing like them.

For example.

Chaos space marine unit.
Stats stay the same, 12pts per marine.
Covenant of khorne: prefured enemy, rage, counter attack.
Etc.
Weapons: as current chaos marine.
Each unit may take a specialism.
Support sqaud: the entire unit must upgrade to take x special weapon.
Despoilers: entire unit must swap bolter for a close combat weapon.
Etc.

Army selection:
Renegade: x units are 0-1, land speeder etc. Mauler field etc.
So a mix of codex and chaos.


I could go on but the main point is that the last few chaos books fail in every aspect at representing chaos as a force, and should be disregarded when writing a new one.

Well, I see a lot of "Every man takes the same weapon" kind of upgrades in that, which works for the HH. But by the 41st millenium, the old legions and any SM chapters that go renegade are a lot less organized. In the HH when the legions needed lascannons, they got 10 of them because they had the resources to do that. current warbands, and arguably, some chapters don't really have the resources for that. I think its reasonable for each model to be able to have its own load out options independent of the rest of the squad.

That said, I see what you mean about not basing it on the current codex. The first thing I did (and I did this for SM and it kind of worked) was port everything ( names, rules, points etc.) over from the codex verbatim and only changed things if they were totally incompatible with my system. I'm erring towards a covenant style set of upgrades where the entire squad pays so many points for all the rules/ stats for a particular cult unit. But some things bother me:

1) for most gods, having a covenant style upgrade and a mark for that god is redundant. the difference between a berzerker and a MoK CSM is a silly distinction. But in my mind, Thousand sons who are literally dust occupying a suit of power armor is very different from a CSM who is blessed by Tzeentch. I kind of want to make Thousand sons their own unit and have a weaker upgrade for normal CSM to be marked by Tzeentch. I'd like someone's thoughts on this.

2) What is the real value of a single, un-upgraded CSM? everyone hates 13ppm CSM and seems to think reducing their cost by 1 point will make them immeasurably better. I would propose the opposite: CSM are not weak for their points, loyalists are strong for their points; What if CSM were 13ppm still but loyalist marines were 15ppm?

The Legion's grew during the heresy and since the heresy some, but not all broke up, logistically they occupy a much smaller piece of the galaxy than the imperium so logically they should be able to focus there resources, but lack a central command structure to focus said resources, so I can see what you mean.

To me the chaos dex should represent the following, each distinct from the other.

Legions.
Renegades
Warbands

Legions are easy since fw has already done the work, the fluff tells us that the Legion's still use their original tactics and units, these are not represented in the tt game however.

Renegades should have small access to codex marines units like whirlwind, land speeders etc. But no demonic units.

Warbands would be a mix of the above.

I agree with the covenant idea, it's simple and does the job, however it should be free, marines do not pay for there tactics, neither do eldar, necrons or tau, so neither should chaos, so either Legion, renegade or warband tactics are free, of the covenants are free, or combine them and have a covenent of khorne, alpha legion etc.

 Formosa wrote:


The Legion's grew during the heresy and since the heresy some, but not all broke up, logistically they occupy a much smaller piece of the galaxy than the imperium so logically they should be able to focus there resources, but lack a central command structure to focus said resources, so I can see what you mean.

To me the chaos dex should represent the following, each distinct from the other.

Legions.
Renegades
Warbands

Legions are easy since fw has already done the work, the fluff tells us that the Legion's still use their original tactics and units, these are not represented in the tt game however.

Renegades should have small access to codex marines units like whirlwind, land speeders etc. But no demonic units.

Warbands would be a mix of the above.

I agree with the covenant idea, it's simple and does the job, however it should be free, marines do not pay for there tactics, neither do eldar, necrons or tau, so neither should chaos, so either Legion, renegade or warband tactics are free, of the covenants are free, or combine them and have a covenent of khorne, alpha legion etc.

I don't know if covenants should be free. A combined Legion/ Warband Tactics system could provide free detachment-- wide bonuses ala Horus Heresy/ C: SM, but then paid- for covenants offer another aspect of customization related to the god they worship. This would allow us to get away from the "All Khorne Berzerkers are from the World Eaters Legion" kind of frame of thought present now. Instead, I could be playing post--heresy Word Bearers, one squad of which happens to be dedicated to Nurgle, and another to Khorne, etc. To keep it fluffy, Legions that became totally dedicated to one of the gods (World Eaters, Death Guard, Emperor's Children, 1K Sons) would have restrictions about only fielding units with that god's mark and to balance that, either they would get slightly better buffs, or the other legions would get similar restrictions (No Daemonic units/ weapons/ additional compulsories, etc.) This also opens up so many possible combinations of options that playing chaos would take forever to get stale.

What I wonder is how to approach newer renegades. Perhaps an Old Legion armory with Heresy- era wargear (volkite, phosphex, rad- grenades) and a newer renegade list with razorbacks, drop-pods, whirlwinds, centurions, but no daemons? That sounds like it would be better served by something akin to the FW chapter tactics pamphlet they put out for the tyrant's legion army list.

 Powerfisting wrote:
In the process of writing army lists for my own 40k homebrew, I encountered a problem with how to establish CSM as a faction. With allies in play (and they are in my rules, just subdued a lot), IoM armies are able to afford over specializing at the cost of not having an answer to some counters. But xenos and chaos army lists need to be more stand- alone. So I attempted to essentially cram the Renegades and Heretics army list AND CSM into the same army list, but hot dam is it getting crowded. The special rules and unique wargear selections I wrote for Space marines are two pages long. I tried to do the same, and its three pages long and I haven't gotten to anything interesting like traitor legions or cool daemon weapons.

I wonder what the best way to approach this is now because it feels like I'm trying to fit too much into one list. I like the cultist options available in the CSM codex and I love the way FW expands on that in IA 13. But would it serve the game better for Renegades and Heretics to be a separate army list from CSM?

Chaos getting a bit of IoM "too much stuff" syndrome is a good thing in my eyes.
feth yea, OPTIONS.


Anyway, how to run it properly according to fluff and be viable-run a core of RnH army, with it being the bulk of your forces, using the type of your choice. personally i vouch for a purge ordinance tyrant, unending host, and tzentch's mobile heavies, and drugged mutant hordes (also, heavy flamer sentinels. these things are absurdly good at 20 points)-there are many viable styles with HnR. its probably the single most verstile "codex" out there, and while its across two books, you can settle with one to run with according to your style, as each of the two as an obvious leaning towards spesific styles as dictated from their unique abilities (varks and IA13 are two full stand-alone lists that do NOT effect each other)

After you got yourself the core HnR force, you sprinkle in CSM. not alot, just a handful of specialists, ones set to do the things your renegades cant. maybe a heldrake, or a few oblits, or a juggerlord and biker escort, or even a land raider berzerker host. stick to the things unique to CSM that the HnR cannot match.
When CSM fight along HnR, they let the humans do most of the work, and take most casualties. the marines themselves take the glory by striking at the things that the humans simply cant.

Now, that's how you do it WITHIN the rules.

If, from some reason, you feel the need to homebrew a freaking big list of both HnR and CSM in one force, although that would be silly and suggest you think all IoM books should be a single list as well, the paradigam you need to follow is that the heretics are the rank-and-file, the lifters and the go-to option, with the CSM being the leaders (HQs) and the top-notch specialists (elites mostly, maybe a bit of HS and HS, but not the focus) that get one job done, and exceptionally well, exceptionally reliably and with small numbers of high end troopers that can compete model-per-model with the elites of marines.

 BoomWolf wrote:
If, from some reason, you feel the need to homebrew a freaking big list of both HnR and CSM in one force, although that would be silly and suggest you think all IoM books should be a single list as well, the paradigam you need to follow is that the heretics are the rank-and-file, the lifters and the go-to option, with the CSM being the leaders (HQs) and the top-notch specialists (elites mostly, maybe a bit of HS and HS, but not the focus) that get one job done, and exceptionally well, exceptionally reliably and with small numbers of high end troopers that can compete model-per-model with the elites of marines.

I only am home brewing these army lists because I wrote my own version of 40k and need the army lists to be compatible. I never said I wanted IoM to be one army list, either. I was noting how IoM armies have access to a lot of different sub factions and can use allies to make up for being super specialized (a la Grey Knights). I want to tone down allies a lot and combine some factions into fewer army lists and over all, make allies less necessary, like GK/ Sisters etc being folded back into inquisition and other things. I realize now that chaos kind of needs separated into more subfactions (Marines, RnH, Daemons) if only for the sake of not over- crowding the army list. The paradigm you mentioned was what I was going for, more or less. It just doesn't work out that way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Chaos getting a bit of IoM "too much stuff" syndrome is a good thing in my eyes. feth yea, OPTIONS.

As for this, I also said this to myself when I started writing. I acquired a copy of the 3.5 codex and some HH material for brainstorming ideas and Hot Damn the options are there.