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How can a person without D weapons kill something( overloard) that has both a nightmare shroud (2+) with the solar thermasite (re-roll all failed saving throws of a 1)and I believe he got some extra reanimation roll with a certain formation. I'm not very familiar with necrons, but doesn't even seem right to me

The overlord cannot take solar thermasite if he's in a decurion detachment (that's the detachment that boosts reanimation protocols). This is because solar thermasite is only available in certain formations that were released in the shield of Baal book. However, the overlord can still get the 2+ re rollable if he's in a shield of Baal formation, since there isn't anything that prevents him from taking the nightmare shroud in that formation. Also, he could boost his reanimation protocols by putting a cryptek in his unit, so it is possible your opponent was playing correctly.

Also, there is a special character in the necron codex (orikan the diviner) who allows models in his unit to reroll saving throws of one. You probably don't want to tell your opponent about him, because you can really abuse him by sticking him with a bunch of special characters who all get re rollable 2+ saves.

How to deal with the 2+ re rollable: bring ap2 weapons if you have access to them. They will negate his armor save, and force him to use his reanimation protocols instead.

Anrakyr-the-Traveller wrote:
The overlord cannot take solar thermasite if he's in a decurion detachment (that's the detachment that boosts reanimation protocols).

That's not the only detachment that improves Reanimation Protocols. The Reclamation Legion (the Core of the Decurion) and the Mephrit Dynasty Cohort Detachment both allow (some of) the members to reroll Reanimation Protocol Rolls of 1. So, yeah, it is possible to have Thermasite and a boost to Reanimation Protocols, and that is even before adding the Crypteks, both normal and named.

We seem to have the YMDC portion of this answered (that it can be taken), so I'm going to move this to tactics for the second part of it (how do we kill it).

 kingsol_sr wrote:
How can a person without D weapons kill something( overloard) that has both a nightmare shroud (2+) with the solar thermasite (re-roll all failed saving throws of a 1)and I believe he got some extra reanimation roll with a certain formation. I'm not very familiar with necrons, but doesn't even seem right to me

Nightmare Shroud is an armour save, so you need to negate it with AP2/1 weapons.

 Frozocrone wrote:

 kingsol_sr wrote:
How can a person without D weapons kill something( overloard) that has both a nightmare shroud (2+) with the solar thermasite (re-roll all failed saving throws of a 1)and I believe he got some extra reanimation roll with a certain formation. I'm not very familiar with necrons, but doesn't even seem right to me

Nightmare Shroud is an armour save, so you need to negate it with AP2/1 weapons.

Equipping a phase shifter will give you a 4++ save as well though. Take on a rez orb and a cryptek and you're still looking pretty good; even against ap1/2.

For added durability (and melee fun), toss him in a squad of lychguard with shields and have them look out sir with their 3++ and 4+++



I hope this next bit doesnt derail things, but this combo is far less worrisome than a beefed up conclave of the burning one.

You'd still fail on a 2-3, which is better than rolling snakes eyes. Adding Crypteks and stuff makes it a huge points sink and if you put Lychguard in the unit, you better have a way to move it about the board quickly, or else it will just get avoided.

The units toughness would be 8, so quite easily dealt with by AT weapons, which are usually Ap2/1. S8 actually IKs the Crypteks and 4++ isn't that reliable a save for a C'Tan. Units also slow as, so just avoid it, unless you tke the Veil of Darknesses in place of the Solar Staff/Nightmare Shroud.

 Frozocrone wrote:
You'd still fail on a 2-3, which is better than rolling snakes eyes. Adding Crypteks and stuff makes it a huge points sink and if you put Lychguard in the unit, you better have a way to move it about the board quickly, or else it will just get avoided.

The units toughness would be 8, so quite easily dealt with by AT weapons, which are usually Ap2/1. S8 actually IKs the Crypteks and 4++ isn't that reliable a save for a C'Tan. Units also slow as, so just avoid it, unless you tke the Veil of Darknesses in place of the Solar Staff/Nightmare Shroud.

God shackle gives +1 to strength and toughness of the c'tan, so a trans c'tan would be T9 with a 4++ and a 5+ FNP; and the formation makes all units resolve wounds at that toughness, so yes crypteks will be resolved at T9 with a 2+rerolling 4++ 4/5+++.

Any weapons less than S10 would be resolving on a 4+ or worse.

When used properly, solar staff is used during the opponenet first shooting phase so they are snap firing with most likely single shot AT weapons. This gives the unit (and army) basically 2 turns to take out the high strength weapons and then be neigh unkillable.

Not too many common things can easily wound T9. Only army that has been somewhat of a threat to it is dark eldar with their tons of poison, but then i just resolve that with my 2+ armor rerolling ones + RP saves for the few that do pass through.


As for both units being discussed; being "slow" doesnt mean much if its not a kill point game. objectives tend to be in the middle, so you're gonna have to deal with them if you want objectives.
just plop down on the objectives and call it a day

Transcedant's are naturally T7. Godshackles makes them T8.

Dark Eldar could very easily out manouver Cryptek placement and kill the C'Tan.

And you never fire at Invisible units, unless they are the only targets in line of sight that you can hurt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also you can't take a Transcedant in the Conclave because it's not a 'Ctan Shard'. Only the Nightbringer and Deceiver can be taken in it.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Transcedant's are naturally T7. Godshackles makes them T8.

Dark Eldar could very easily out manouver Cryptek placement and kill the C'Tan.

And you never fire at Invisible units, unless they are the only targets in line of sight that you can hurt.

hmm i was always under the impression they were T8, i dont have my codex on hand since im at work. I've only used the nightbringer with this, whom i knew was T7, was using the trans to create a "worst possible thing to face" scenario to further show how brutal these wargear options can be.

Out manouvering can be countered with lookout sir rolls to some degree, but lets be honest....how likely are you to face dark eldar anyway? that's the only faction that can realy threaten it, and it is a minority if it even exists in most metas.

The thing about this formation and the overlord & pals group, is both are going to be supported by a decurion. if its the normal 1850pts game, you're going to also have ~1350 pts of decurion 'crons to contend with as well. So you are going to also be dealing with fun stuff like those really fast 3++ 4+++ wraiths.

Sure in a vaccum the formation has some flaws and we can create the perfect scenario to counter it, but on a table with terrain, objectives, and the supporting army, against common armies this formation does become a massive headache for those unprepared for it.

Both are tough and absolutely devastating in melee, and for the c'tan their shooting, though random, can also be pretty amazing.

Having said all this; from my experience, the only thing that you can realisitcally do is craft up a fearless tarpit or bring a high intitiative high attack melee squad that has ap2
weapons and hope you can kill them first

Also you can't take a Transcedant in the Conclave because it's not a 'Ctan Shard'. Only the Nightbringer and Deceiver can be taken in it.

Its odd that that is the case, considering the model used in the book and picture for the formation, but this is territory i am not too well versed on so i have nothing constructive to say on it beyond my observation.

i prefer to use Trazyn honestly
Just because of the 2+ Middle-Finger-To-The-Opponent roll
Plus he just wrecks hordes

As a Dark Eldar player, I'm all in favor of people not planning to face them. More of that, please!

That seems like a nice Conclave build, though. It'd be tasty in a Freakshow.

commander dante wrote:
i prefer to use Trazyn honestly

Wow, I think that might be the first time anyone has said that since the new codex dropped.

 stormotron wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
Transcedant's are naturally T7. Godshackles makes them T8.

Dark Eldar could very easily out manouver Cryptek placement and kill the C'Tan.

And you never fire at Invisible units, unless they are the only targets in line of sight that you can hurt.

hmm i was always under the impression they were T8, i dont have my codex on hand since im at work. I've only used the nightbringer with this, whom i knew was T7, was using the trans to create a "worst possible thing to face" scenario to further show how brutal these wargear options can be.

Out manouvering can be countered with lookout sir rolls to some degree, but lets be honest....how likely are you to face dark eldar anyway? that's the only faction that can realy threaten it, and it is a minority if it even exists in most metas.

The thing about this formation and the overlord & pals group, is both are going to be supported by a decurion. if its the normal 1850pts game, you're going to also have ~1350 pts of decurion 'crons to contend with as well. So you are going to also be dealing with fun stuff like those really fast 3++ 4+++ wraiths.

Sure in a vaccum the formation has some flaws and we can create the perfect scenario to counter it, but on a table with terrain, objectives, and the supporting army, against common armies this formation does become a massive headache for those unprepared for it.

Both are tough and absolutely devastating in melee, and for the c'tan their shooting, though random, can also be pretty amazing.

Having said all this; from my experience, the only thing that you can realisitcally do is craft up a fearless tarpit or bring a high intitiative high attack melee squad that has ap2
weapons and hope you can kill them first

Also you can't take a Transcedant in the Conclave because it's not a 'Ctan Shard'. Only the Nightbringer and Deceiver can be taken in it.

Its odd that that is the case, considering the model used in the book and picture for the formation, but this is territory i am not too well versed on so i have nothing constructive to say on it beyond my observation.

Nightbringer has pretty nifty gaze of death too, that doesn't require rolling to hit and can target FMCs lol.

You might be thinking of the profile of the Transcedant C'tan in Escalation, which is naturally T9. Most tournaments ban him though, as he's part of the 'Unholy Trinity' (the other two being the Revenant and the Warhound Scout Titan).

 Frozocrone wrote:

 stormotron wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
Transcedant's are naturally T7. Godshackles makes them T8.

Dark Eldar could very easily out manouver Cryptek placement and kill the C'Tan.

And you never fire at Invisible units, unless they are the only targets in line of sight that you can hurt.

hmm i was always under the impression they were T8, i dont have my codex on hand since im at work. I've only used the nightbringer with this, whom i knew was T7, was using the trans to create a "worst possible thing to face" scenario to further show how brutal these wargear options can be.

Out manouvering can be countered with lookout sir rolls to some degree, but lets be honest....how likely are you to face dark eldar anyway? that's the only faction that can realy threaten it, and it is a minority if it even exists in most metas.

The thing about this formation and the overlord & pals group, is both are going to be supported by a decurion. if its the normal 1850pts game, you're going to also have ~1350 pts of decurion 'crons to contend with as well. So you are going to also be dealing with fun stuff like those really fast 3++ 4+++ wraiths.

Sure in a vaccum the formation has some flaws and we can create the perfect scenario to counter it, but on a table with terrain, objectives, and the supporting army, against common armies this formation does become a massive headache for those unprepared for it.

Both are tough and absolutely devastating in melee, and for the c'tan their shooting, though random, can also be pretty amazing.

Having said all this; from my experience, the only thing that you can realisitcally do is craft up a fearless tarpit or bring a high intitiative high attack melee squad that has ap2
weapons and hope you can kill them first

Also you can't take a Transcedant in the Conclave because it's not a 'Ctan Shard'. Only the Nightbringer and Deceiver can be taken in it.

Its odd that that is the case, considering the model used in the book and picture for the formation, but this is territory i am not too well versed on so i have nothing constructive to say on it beyond my observation.

Nightbringer has pretty nifty gaze of death too, that doesn't require rolling to hit and can target FMCs lol.

You might be thinking of the profile of the Transcedant C'tan in Escalation, which is naturally T9. Most tournaments ban him though, as he's part of the 'Unholy Trinity' (the other two being the Revenant and the Warhound Scout Titan).

Ya the gaze of death is a nifty way of regening any lost wounds lol.

I finally figured out where I was getting T9....he's S8 T7 instead of the S7 T7 the others are. So with god shackle, he'd be S9 T8.



Anyway after having had some time to sleep on this thread. if I knew I would be facing any of these builds, I would bring a high initiative ap2 character and declare a challenge. Even if you die afterwards to the other models in the unit, it should be fairly doable to get'm.

If I was running my tyranids though, I'd still go with my earlier suggestion of drowning them in fearless bodies. 20-40 hormagaunts with toxin sacks will probably cost a lot less than any of their groups, and could actually wreck them due to the high volume off attacks and poison. If not, they are gonna be stuck basically the entire game. The lord with 5 lychguard is only 13 attacks a turn if you charge them and the C'tan formation is 8 per turn. Good luck getting through 40 models lol

Just be careful if it's the Nightbringer. Gaze of Death will murder Ld6 guys.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Just be careful if it's the Nightbringer. Gaze of Death will murder Ld6 guys.

Has there been a ruling if that's useable if you're locked in combat? I always thought since it was in the shooting phase it was not allowed.


I may be wrong though.....which I guess for me would be a good thing if I am lol

It's a special rule, not a Shooting attack so RAW yeah. You can even autohit Invisible units.

You might get a few dirty looks though.

 skoffs wrote:

commander dante wrote:
i prefer to use Trazyn honestly

Wow, I think that might be the first time anyone has said that since the new codex dropped.

Same here. Maybe if he could still possess Lychguard he'd be alright.

And here I thought I was done losing friends due to C'tan shenanigans lol