20 Man CSM CCW Mob, Marked CSM or Noise Marines

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**SirSweetroll**

Recently picked up 20 CSM with CCW and I feel like running them as a big blob screened by cultists (or outflanked/infiltrated) for fun. I sadly wont have my book for another week but I was wondering if anyone had an opinion on this.

I would run either with:
+CCW (For CSM, I would be open to either swapping for bolters or paying for the upgrade)
+Assault Weapons (Wouldn't want to not be able to assault, Blastmasters for Noise Marines, probably Melta for CSM)(Pretty sure melta is assault)
+IoE (Which would mean factoring the cost of MoS into the CSM)

Which is stronger? Which is more efficient on the points? What, if any, unnamed characters should I add to the blob? What is your shoe size?

**Captyn_Bob**

You want a fearless character leading cheap marines.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Shoe size 13

**cod3x**

It really depends on what you're doing with them. A large blob like that is inherently immobile, so you aren't going to zooming around the board grabbing objectives, so what to they actually DO in your build?

If going full blob, grab the fearless banner. One bad roll to break your squad is no fun. They aren't melee masters, so running them up against dedicated HtH troops is going to go poorly. I'd keep the bolters for versatility so you can drop some shots into that Boyz mob instead of wading in.

20 marked marines with I5 and IWND is a decent assault squad, but it's gonna be expensive for having S4 and power armor. One good battle cannon and your out a hundred points or so. It's fun, but be aware you'll lose out to hyper efficient army list. They will still get eaten alive by big choppy things so you can only use em against mid grade HtH or worse. Gonna need a LR or something to allow them to choose there targets. That FW hover claw thing may work if you can go FW. This expensive ass mob running around the table just spells bad news.

Huron is cheap, versatile, effective, and will allow you to infiltrate. Get 20 cc troops with Huron, fearless, bolters and a few flamers/meltas get close and run in screaming.

Throw hunron in the cheapest blob of 20 fearless cc marines you can make. Then put them in an army that doesn't need them. Profit.

**nareik**

If you're running 20 melee marines this might actually be the time where a dark apostle is useful because you're getting 'free' (read paying 105 points for a mediocre character) hatred and fearless for 20 models.

I'd probably also throw in a melta bomb (or two) just to make sure you don't get pinned down all day by an AV 13 walker.

Slaanesh makes sense if you want to minimise your losses by striking first and be better at chasing/running away in combat (should you lose your character/icon). I guess you could run them as combat noise marines if you want to guarantee them not running away. A doom siren for overwatch would deter any power weapon/power armour vanguards trying to punch out the unit.

**locarno24**

The advantage of the Icon of Vengeance is that it's not being waved around by a character - Relying on a character to provide you with Fearless is asking to have said character challenged and murdered by a superior melee opponent (and, lets face it, most potential foes of a Dark Apostle are better than he is).

**Cilithan**

Hey Sir Sweetroll,

I've been working on a similar theme for a more fluffy CSM list. The list I settled on is this:

Combined Arms Detachment
160 Huron Blackheart
150 Sorcerer , ML3, Forcesword, Bike, Spell Familiar, Meltabombs
190 Cypher
365 20 Chaos Space Marines, 10 Boltgun, 10 Boltpistol/CCW, 2 Meltagun, Champion: Meltabombs, Mark of Slaanesh, Icon of Excess
45 Rhino, Dirge Caster, Dozer Blade
100 20 Cultists
180 5 Chaos Spawn, Mark of Nurgle
170 Heldrake, Baleflamer
135 Maulerfiend, Lasher Tendrils
125 Maulerfiend
228 3 Obliterators, Mark of Nurgle

4ML
55 models
1848 points

I think Cypher, for Shrouded, Hit and Run, Infiltrate and ATSKNF, is worth his weight in gold for the Blob squad.
In most games I would start with CSM+Cypher infiltrating, Huron with the Cultists (Infiltrating if I roll high on Hurons trait), Sorc with Obliterators.

Good luck with the list, let us know how you do with it.

Cilithan

**Captyn_Bob**

I like to alter them with fabius, to make them str5 and inherently fearless.

**SirSweetroll**

Does Fabius's ability work on marked troops or do they have to be unmarked? I can see the value in taking 20 marked CSMs with the IoE, Huron to infiltrate them and then run with another nonfearless squad, Fabulous to enhance them and then run with another nonfearless squad.

In the end, 20 3+/FNP sv's, 60 Str5 attacks on the charge at I5, and fearless. (Not to mention 40bolter shots on overwatch)

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe even take another CAD and bring in a sorcerer, but at that point I think its just too much

**Captyn_Bob**

Fabius works on marked troops sure!
He is fabulous.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Belakor to make them invisible.
.then you remember you've spent half your army on characters to boost a mediocre combat unit.

**SirSweetroll**

Captyn_Bob wrote:

Belakor to make them invisible.
.then you remember you've spent half your army on characters to boost a mediocre combat unit.

This is true

Probably try to find a way to throw Cypher in there for the added buffs. The first time I run it I'll buff it to the stratosphere just for

and giggles. Taking Cypher and forgoing Fabulous and Huron is probably the happy medium but we shall see once its been on the table a few times, hit and run sounds pretty brutal if I could get a Lord with the burning brand

Speaking of which, I never really looked at Cypher, does he give three units of chosen infiltrate or did I read that wrong? That seems like a fun deployment even if its just marines. Shoot my special weapon teams, or my Power armored horde Muahahahah!

I planned on running my CSM horde with the Helcult (PlasmaBrute with 70 fearless Cultists) for a pretty good swarm vibe. I like writing my lists more for the fun(See Nurgle to the face in army lists) , if I get a weird look before the game starts AND don't get whipped off the table, Ill call it a good game.

Thanks for chiming in everyone! Always open to your thoughts

**Slayer-Fan123**

If you're infiltrating, Noise Marines. They're naturally Fearless, and therefore you can buy the FNP banner for them instead.

**DarknessEternal**

Three days ago, I had 5 Howling Banshees charge what was left of a 20 man blob (probably 15). The Banshees won, with 3 kills to 2, then ran down the remaining dozen or so guys.

Don't take giant blobs of things that aren't always fearless.

**SirSweetroll**

DarknessEternal wrote:
Three days ago, I had 5 Howling Banshees charge what was left of a 20 man blob (probably 15). The Banshees won, with 3 kills to 2, then ran down the remaining dozen or so guys.

Don't take giant blobs of things that aren't always fearless.

A lesson I am happy to learn from another's misfortune, and not my own

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Can someone run the numbers for me please? I wont have my book till this weekend :(

**DarknessEternal**

Which numbers exactly?

**SirSweetroll**

DarknessEternal wrote:
Which numbers exactly?

The Point Value of Marked CSMs with ccws, meltas, and IoE
v.s.
Point Value of Noise Marines with ccw, (blastmasters/doomsiren [forgot if they were assault, only assault), and IoE

Just the big numbers so I can get an idea. Ill have to add a character to the Marked ones but I can factor that later

**DarknessEternal**

regular dudes + 2 meltas = 360

noise dudes + doom siren = 395

**SirSweetroll**

DarknessEternal wrote:
regular dudes + 2 meltas = 360

noise dudes + doom siren = 395

So basically, I pay an extra 35pts, and I get fearless on everything and no need for a minimum 65 point fearless tax?
However, if I go the Fabulous route, it would be 100 or so points higher than noise marines but end up with Str5 and two fearless units.

I think if they are going to be running solo, they'll need to be "noise dudes" but if they are joined by Cypher (whom I believe isn't forced to challenge) they could be CSMs.
The minimal price difference does lean me much closer to Noise Marines though

Thanks!

**DarknessEternal**

SirSweetroll wrote:
(whom I believe isn't forced to challenge)

Champion of Chaos is a Distraction Carnifex of a rule.

Either your unit is going to win anyway, in which case the challenge hardly matters. Or your unit is going to lose anyway, in which case the challenge hardly matters.

The odds of an assault result in 7th edition being so close that this rule has an impact is minute.

**koooaei**

I've tried mos marines with Cypher infiltrated by Huron/Ahriman and they did good enough. They're still slow but with Cypher and FNP they're quite durable and get H&R. Also tried Cypher + khornated but they didn't do too well cause i was facing tau, so, extra choppiness doesn't really matter but fnp does.
I've also tried mos marines with mos steed lord and Fabius. Was facing IG gunline, so the guyz did great.
I also want to try mok marines buffed by fabius. 4 s6 attacks each. Who needs ap2 anywayz. Will probably need bunker with an escape hatch.

As for mos vs noize, they both have goods and bads. Mos marines have meltas and noize marines have fearless. Now it depends on the matchup, so it's up to you to decide.

**Captyn_Bob**

The issue which turned me off noise marines, was needing a MoS Lord to make them troop. If your loading up with other characters it hits your points.

Taking them as non troop just doesn't work out either.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Captyn_Bob wrote:
The issue which turned me off noise marines, was needing a MoS Lord to make them troop. If your loading up with other characters it hits your points.

Taking them as non troop just doesn't work out either.

I don't get the last statement. We aren't using the Elite Slot anyway.

**koooaei**

Obsec is huge for the unit.

With a need to take mos lord, you have an opportunity to run him with LC+brand accompanied by raptors, termies or bikers. It's a bit of a change from mon spawns that are everywhere.

**Captyn_Bob**

Yeah you lose obsec, AND have to find another troop choice , and chaos troops suck

**topaxygouroun i**

DarknessEternal wrote:
Three days ago, I had 5 Howling Banshees charge what was left of a 20 man blob (probably 15). The Banshees won, with 3 kills to 2, then ran down the remaining dozen or so guys.

Don't take giant blobs of things that aren't always fearless.

Cypher would give the dudes ATSKNF , therefore fleeing won't have any real impact in the game rather than moving the combat couple of inches backwards.

**Quientin**

Wow there are some brilliant ideas here. Personally I think you might want to proxy and play test

**koooaei**

I want to point out that Cypher with his ATSKNF is allready buffing the squad's morale and is enough in many cases. And he doesn't have to take challenges ~~cause he's not freaking stupid~~
HOWEVER, there's some stuff that's come out recently that can screw up non-fearless deathstars. Space clowns are a good example of how you can suddenly become ld6-7 and have 50/50 to pass a pinning test or even fall back 2d6. And don't forget about that new asm+devastator formation.

**Slayer-Fan123**

koooaei wrote:
Obsec is huge for the unit.

With a need to take mos lord, you have an opportunity to run him with LC+brand accompanied by raptors, termies or bikers. It's a bit of a change from mon spawns that are everywhere.

Objective Secured is honestly NOT that big a benefit. As someone running the Decurion for Necrons and Daemonkin, I almost never miss it.

**DarknessEternal**

Objective Secured on a few units is never going to matter.

It matters to Demi-companies when they put down a zillion Objective Secured units on every single objective starting on turn 1.

It doesn't matter if you have 2 Objective Secured units instead of 3.

**welshhoppo**

It shouldn't matter that much for csm because you'll generally be running huge units of cultists as troops anyway.

I did used to do a bit of troop spam back when I used to properly play 40k. Massive units of cultists, or renegade guard, and large units of csm both.

When you get to a unit of twenty men, it becomes very hard to move. It's slow and easy to hit but can generally take a beating especially if you are running the fnp banner, just keep him away from barrage weapons.

If you want to try something else, grab 20 noise marines with sonicblasters and bring Huron for a massive outflanking unit of pain and suffering, just be careful because it is a lot of points that might not turn up until it is too late.

**Slayer-Fan123**

welshhoppo wrote:
running huge units of cultists as troops anyway.

Nobody does this anymore. They're merely used to fulfill the minimum Troop requirement to buy more of the good units from the codex.