Leman Russ called Angron a heretic..

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**Maximus Bitch**

...when their legions clashed after Angron refused to obey the Emperor.

Why did he call Angron a heretic when the Imperial Cult had not been established then?

Also, Angron was pretty lucky, he got away with his many transgressions. The Emperor hardly punished him.

**Brennonjw**

I don't remember him calling angron a heretic, but saying that he sucked, and was not a cool guy, and didn't know how to command. heretic could also refer to angron going outside the tennants of the emperors battle doctrines maybe? Maybe it was the vocal and active hating of the emperor that Angron did? Side note: Russ attacking a fellow legion without the Big E's permission is fairly heretical, if I do say so myself.

**Maximus Bitch**

Brennonjw wrote:
I don't remember him calling angron a heretic, but saying that he sucked, and was not a cool guy, and didn't know how to command. heretic could also refer to angron going outside the tennants of the emperors battle doctrines maybe? Maybe it was the vocal and active hating of the emperor that Angron did? Side note: Russ attacking a fellow legion without the Big E's permission is fairly heretical, if I do say so myself.

Big E had asked Russ to escort Angron. I believe it was mentioned in Betrayer

**Captyn_Bob**

I need to 're-read betrayer to confirm what words were used. Heretic does seem off. But then Russ was a religiously minded primarch. They call the emperor the Allfather and according to Magnus, Russ sympathized with Lorgars position.

**Brennonjw**

Maximus Bitch wrote:
Brennonjw wrote:
I don't remember him calling angron a heretic, but saying that he sucked, and was not a cool guy, and didn't know how to command. heretic could also refer to angron going outside the tennants of the emperors battle doctrines maybe? Maybe it was the vocal and active hating of the emperor that Angron did? Side note: Russ attacking a fellow legion without the Big E's permission is fairly heretical, if I do say so myself.

Big E had asked Russ to escort Angron. I believe it was mentioned in Betrayer

Yeah, escort, not attack XD

**Maximus Bitch**

Captyn_Bob wrote:
I need to 're-read betrayer to confirm what words were used. Heretic does seem off. But then Russ was a religiously minded primarch. They call the emperor the Allfather and according to Magnus, Russ sympathized with Lorgars position.

Any fluff of Russ and Lorgar? He definitely used the word heretic.

Since the Emperor was pretty atheist, the word heretic would have been lost on Angron anyway.

**Captyn_Bob**

Pretty sure in First Heretic, Lorgar is talking to Magnus, and Magnus says that although he would never admit it, Russ sympathises with Lorgars position, as the wolves are a deeply spiritual legion.

**ImAGeek**

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Pretty sure in First Heretic, Lorgar is talking to Magnus, and Magnus says that although he would never admit it, Russ sympathises with Lorgars position, as the wolves are a deeply spiritual legion.

I think he says that Russ doesn't want the Word Bearers destroyed, as opposed to neccesarily actually sympathising with their position. I'd have to read it but I don't remember it being that he agreed with them, more that he didn't want a third legion 'expunged'.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've got the quote:

'Leman Russ spoke in my favour?' Lorgar laughed. 'Truly, we live in an age of marvels.'
Magnus didn't share the amusement. His lone eye was a deep, Arctic blue as it fixed upon Lorgar. 'He did. The Space Wolves are a spiritual legion, in their own stunted and blind way. Fenris is an unmerciful cradle, and it breeds such things in them. Russ knows that, though he lacks the intelligence to give it voice. Instead, he swore that he'd already lost two brothers, and had no desire to lose a third.'

So from what I read from that, he does agree with Lorgar in his own way, but 'lacks the intelligence' to word it, so instead says it's because he doesn't want to lose a third brother?

**Darth Bob**

While the general use of the word 'heretic' implies religious connections, it can also mean someone who is at odd with some generally accepted set of principles or beliefs that aren't necessarily religious.

**Splog**

Maximus Bitch wrote:
Since the Emperor was pretty atheist, the word heretic would have been lost on Angron anyway.

The Emperor was not an atheist with regards to the chaos powers. He was a believer but not a worshipper. He created an atheistic regime to deny them acknowledgement and worship.

This is one of the interesting aspects of the setting. The Emperor exterminates the human religions because they point towards the truth. He sets up a grand lie called the Imperial Truth, as a replacement ideology. This lie then becomes to be seen as 'evidence' of his divinity, which in turn contributes to his apotheosis to some sort of godhood. The cult of the Emperor becomes established, and the bulk of humanity worship him rather than the chaos powers. His well intentioned lie is undone, the Imperial 'Truth' is shattered, and the people worship a false god.

For the Imperial Citizen:

The truth can corrupt and enslave. Literally.

An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred.

Everything you have been told is a lie.

For your own good.

**Massaen**

Maximus Bitch wrote:
...when their legions clashed after Angron refused to obey the Emperor.

Angron never refused to obey the Emperor - Russ admits he is acting of his own accord and that he has no permission to chastise Angron

Maximus Bitch wrote:
Why did he call Angron a heretic when the Imperial Cult had not been established then?

Angron talks about killing the Emperor as well as how he sees the emperor as a tyrant and slaver, Russ takes this badly and calls him a heretic. Heresy is any provocative belief or theory that is strongly at variance with established beliefs or customs. A heretic is a proponent of such claims or beliefs. As you can see, Angron would indeed be a heretic in this case.

**locarno24**

While the general use of the word 'heretic' implies religious connections, it can also mean someone who is at odd with some generally accepted set of principles or beliefs that aren't necessarily religious.

Indeed, one of the Luna Wolves' Iterators gives precisely this explanation to Loken earlier in the series; theoretically, as the Imperium and Imperial Rule is now the status quo ante, anyone defying it or criticising it could be classed as a heretic.

Suggesting you "mount the steps of the palace and take the slaving bastard's head" fairly unarguably counts as defiant and/or critical behaviour.

**godking**

Maximus Bitch wrote:
Brennonjw wrote:
I don't remember him calling angron a heretic, but saying that he sucked, and was not a cool guy, and didn't know how to command. heretic could also refer to angron going outside the tennants of the emperors battle doctrines maybe? Maybe it was the vocal and active hating of the emperor that Angron did? Side note: Russ attacking a fellow legion without the Big E's permission is fairly heretical, if I do say so myself.

Big E had asked Russ to escort Angron. I believe it was mentioned in Betrayer

No HE DID'NT. Angron specifically called Russ out on that.

Russ deciding to ''escort'' Angron was Russ own idea which backfired horribly.

**Harriticus**

Angron was defying the will of the Emperor (i.e. continuing the Butcher's Nails) which is "heresy". The term was used even before the Imperium became a theocracy.

**Maximus Bitch**

Darth Bob wrote:
While the general use of the word 'heretic' implies religious connections, it can also mean someone who is at odd with some generally accepted set of principles or beliefs that aren't necessarily religious.

though all the Primarchs were exceptional individuals and non-conformists.

**Ignatius**

Reposting from another thread with a similar topic my response...

The Imperium is correct to call someone a Heretic because of what the term actually means. Heresy is not a bad thing inherently. Historically, heresy began to be seen as a bad thing in the Middle Ages around the time of the Edict of Milan in 313 with the Donatists and Arians, and latter with the Cathars sweeping through Europe.

It at first was not a bad thing, as the Donatists and Arians just had slight differences. It became terrible in the 12th and 13th centuries though. Seeing as how they had a different interpretation of things than the dominant Catholicism, they were demonized, and that sentiment has carried over into today's world. Hearing the term Heretic today to us is immediately associated with evil and wrongness because our ancestors were taught than anything that was not in line with the Catholic Church's teachings was leading to the path to damnation. It makes sense why were perceive heretics as bad.

However, the term heresy comes from the Greek word for choice, literally "party or school of a man's choice". Though the Cathars were pretty different and lumped into the whole heresy thing, they were far from the only thing. Heretics of Christianity were ironically the most devout Christians. They were fed up with the corruption and dedication to money in the Catholic Church, and people like Peter Waldo advocated for things like translating the Bible from Latin into other languages, they were anti-clerical, believed in lay piety (worship on their own time), anti-materialistic, and believed in the idea of congregation outside of the church to talk about God, just to name a few. This all came to a head in 1209 when the Albigensian Crusade begins in South Eastern France under Philip Augustus and the Pope (I think Pope Gregory? Someone correct me if I'm wrong) and ends in 1229, and where our idea heresy is bad comes from.

Anyways, heresy is not a bad thing historically, just abused by the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages to demonize people who had a different view as them, and were seen as bad regardless of their views as they were believed to be potentially harmful to their authority.

Insert Chaos for the types of heresy, and the Imperium for the Catholic Church. It fits to a tee if you understand the history behind the word.

Sorry for the history lesson, but understanding why heresy fits for Imperials who don't follow the Imperial Cult boils down to this history.

Which in this context is just giving the idea of where the association between heretic and religion comes from. Heresy is not limited to religion, nor is it supposed to be an inherently bad thing, though because of the above, it is used in a negative way today.