Curious about Warmachine after years of avoiding it (saw Retribution finally)

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**GrimDork**

So like the title says, the aesthetic of Warmachine kind of threw me off at first. Something about the steampunk look some of the Jacks have I guess. I just saw some Retribution..jacks are they?... and thought to myself that I wouldn't mind painting a couple of those. I reinforced the idea as I browsed through some of the characters and was similarly not off-put.

Then I got to what seems to be the 'basic' infantry with the rifles/halberds/what have you, and my somewhat-dislike of the aesthetic kind of reared it's ugly mug.

So what I'm primarily wondering is... how flexible are the list building rules? I mean, the only units that I don't really like too much are the house guard rifle guys and halberdiers, and those are even starting to grow on me a little bit. Kind of to the point that if i could get into the game without needing the houseguard stuff... I may buy it later.

I guess I'm primarily interested in the Jacks, knight dudes (on horses, but maybe there's a unit on foot I missed?), the mage hunter stuff is pretty cool too. I'm assuming that each war caster tweaks which mix of units you would be wise to bring... so I guess that's part of what I'm after too. Probably too much to ask for mage hunters and knights to have the same boss, but if I could use either of those in conjunction with the neat white warjacks with arm blades/giant swords (the weird guns don't appeal to me *quite* as much) and without *having* to bring along the gunners/halberd guys (at least at first), then I'd be several paces closer to pulling the trigger on some kind of starting contingent.

I see that the army in a box box has two units I don't really love, so that's probably out (unless the combined discount on the book and other models is better than what I'd *lose* to those units). The smaller starter box has just the caster and 3 jacks right? Are they useful?

Anyway sorry for blabbering on. Mostly curious about how the nuts and bolts of army composition go with this game, and if I can skip a couple of units that look pretty mainstay-ish.

Oh, also, thanks for looking

**motyak**

Do you like the look of the warcasters Ravyn (she loves an army with mage hunters in it), Vyross on his horse has a great list with a lot of light jacks and a unit of invictors), or Rahn (has solid armies built of sentinels, battle mages and stormfall archers)? Now don't get me wrong, those aren't the only ways to run those guys, but they're commonly seen versions of their lists, and can be quite fun (I've only ever played vs them, but it was enjoyable).

Really what I'm trying to say is that army composition is very open. While Issyria may often be seen in an army with a lot of houseguard units, she's also fantastic with a lot of the dawngurd units (especially invictors in her theme list, which is a fluffy way to build armies that is built into the rules).

Hope that helped, and welcome to the game. Hope you enjoy it

**chaos0xomega**

I dont have much experience with Ret, but AFAIK the Houseguard units are absolutely not necessary (though they are pretty good). Your alternatives are things like the Mage Hunter Strike Force, Dawnguard Units (Destors on Horses, Invictors/Sentinels on foot, as well as the Thane and Scyir options for Solos), as well as the Mage Hunter units, Electromancer unit, and Stormfall Archers unit. Jacks are up to you, you could conceivably run an all warjack (Ret calls them Myrmidons btw) if you wanted to, though the only way to be competitive with that is to pair very specific jacks with very specific casters, the names of which escape me.

**Chongara**

There are no strict list construction rules or Force Organization.

If you're allowed to take X unit in X amount in Retribution in general, that doesn't change with the warcasters.

The only thing that changes is what spells & abilities your warcaster has, and that some of those compliment some models more than others. In almost all cases you can take any generic legal list and swap out the casters at will without changing the legality. Some warcasters get +/- 1 to 3 points to spend on warjacks compared to each other, but that's a point restriction not a core list building mechanic.

This means that your only constraint is going to be one of "How effectively does this list work?". Someone more well versed in retribution than me would need to go into detail on what makes a good ret list. Mage Hunters are scary MOFOs with any caster as far as I'm concerned though.

**Falkman**

GrimDork wrote:
So what I'm primarily wondering is... how flexible are the list building rules?

The list building rules in Warmachine are very forgiving. Basically you have to have one warcaster, at least one warjack (because you have to spend your caster's warjack points) and that's it. Every model and unit has a Field Allowance stat (FA) which dictates how many of that model or unit you can bring in a list, but other than that there are no restrictions. You could bring 50 points of warjacks, or a single cheap warjack and almost 50 points of units, or a mix. There are no core, special or rare choice equivalents.
Where list design comes in is instead in the combos and synergies between different types of models. Some models work very well together and some not at all.

GrimDork wrote:
knight dudes (on horses, but maybe there's a unit on foot I missed?)

The horse dudes (Dawnguard Destors) are, together with the Heavy rifle team unit, the Nayl solo and the Gorgon warjack, the only really bad models in the Retribution faction. I would recommend you to stay away from them.
There are however two infantry units of knights; the Dawnguard Sentinels (devastating in melee) and the Dawnguard Invictors (powerful shooting backed up with decent melee stats (which becomes great if they fight in the vicinity of a friendly warjack)). Both those units are good so will be great buys.

GrimDork wrote:
Probably too much to ask for mage hunters and knights to have the same boss, but if I could use either of those in conjunction with the neat white warjacks with arm blades/giant swords

Some Retribution warcasters focus solely on one aspect of the game. Ravyn and Ossyan for example both boost shooting so want a majority of shooting troops.
However, Issyria, Kaelyssa and the newly released Thyron all support a variety of models and can definitely make good use of both Mage hunters and Dawnguard (knights) and some warjacks.

GrimDork wrote:
The smaller starter box has just the caster and 3 jacks right? Are they useful?

Maybe not together in the same list, but you'll use both the Chimera and the Griffon in lists, and Kaelyssa too if you like her. The Manticore isn't vey popular outside of Kaelyssa's Force Wall theme force but it's decent enough.

**GrimDork**

Thanks guys, giving me a lot to think about

@Falkman good information. So the horsie guys are a bust, huh? What about the two mounted champion guys, one has a lance the other has some kind of weird sword, are they any kind of useful?

That's interesting that Thyron is generally useful, I was kind of eyeing that one while browsing today.

I'll have another look at the foot-knights, I think I remember liking them after a second or third look. And the mage hunters are a go. The archers with the big bows also seemed aesthetically viable.

From what you've said, I could probably pick up the starter box and not suffer for it, and add to that. If I don't use all the parts all the time, it's not really any different from most other table top games I've played.

Cool, thanks for the info guys. Keep it coming if you've got any more advice. I usually get into spats of wanting to design a force and figure up a purchase list but I may actually pull the trigger on some of these guys, their look is rapidly growing on me.

**Grey Templar**

There are only 2 mounted champion dudes in Ret. There is the Destor Thane, who is this guy(http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Destor+Thane). He's a decent combat solos and can be useful, unlike his unit counterpart the Dawnguard Destors. Then there is Fane Knight Skeryth, which is basically a character Destor Thane. Another decent combat solos, but not as good as the Destor Thane. There isn't a dude with a Sword, unless you mean Epic Vyros(http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Vyros%2C+Incissar+of+the+Dawnguard) who is actually a Warcaster(and a very good one)

How you build a list is as follows,

1) Choose your warcaster. Each warcaster has a number of Warjack points instead of a normal point cost. These are basically free points that you can only spend on Warjacks. So a 50 point list with a Warcaster who has +5 WJ points can contain 55 points of models, 5 of which must be spent on warjacks.

2) Pick jacks, units, and solos that compliment the Warcaster's, and the rest of the list's, synergies and style.

I would recommend buying the Ret battlebox(or All in one box if you can find it) and play some games with that till you are comfortable with the system. Then you can make more educated purchase and list decisions. Its tough to visualize how stuff all works together without at least having the basics of the game under your belt. otherwise some abilities might seem not very valuable, or even how abilities play off of each other.

**GrimDork**

You make good points. I'm sure knowing how to play would be useful, although I primarily paint these days. I do think that Warmahordes is played in both of my semi-local (hour away) gamestores but not in town, so it's not impossible that I might get in some games.

I just noticed that the Vyros was a warcaster and not just some horse dude. I read the link, that sounds pretty sweet and like something I may like to try in the future. Charging around leading his troops from the (sort of) front, getting them through cover and debuffing incoming missiles (or something like that). He also has a shotgunblade, an eyepatch, and a freaking falcon(or eagle or hawk). How have I managed to live without such a cool freaking model?

And that the Destor Thane is fine to take, which is cool. Five of them charging around sounded neat and all but if taking one or two of the Solos is more sensible then that's fine by me.

So you could have the Vyros2 charging around with a gaggle of mage hunters(or just solos even?), foot knights (who won't run away around him, I think) and a couple of myrmidons, bypassing cover, juking missiles, and getting in people's faces. Sounds kind of fun

It helps that I more or less like the models I've mentioned.

I'm sure I'm missing some key points here or there, but all of this food for thought is quite exciting

**Grey Templar**

Well thats the other thing. Most things have a limit to the number of them you can take.

Most units and solos(that aren't characters) are FA:2, including all Ret solos. Meaning you can only take 2 per Warcaster(and unless you are playing 100+ point games you will only have 1 warcaster).

And even if you could take more, usually its not beneficial to spam stuff in WMH. Duplicates are rare except in certain cases like Jacks or specific lists or solos.

Epic Vyros is a good caster, although his most common list build is a bit of a skew list. In that you're gonna be buying a ton of models you wouldn't use in any other list. Namely, it focuses around running 7-8 Griffon light jacks and Imperitus(his character heavy jack). You'll never use more than 1 Griffon outside of this list. You'll actually rarely run more than 2, maybe 3, jacks at all outside of eVyross.

This means if you expand beyond Vyross, you'll have a lot of stuff to purchase.

eVyross will not be good running around with a bunch of solos. He's a jack spam caster.

**GrimDork**

Ahh, interesting. I'll have to be more thorough in my research, that wiki page that got linked suggested that he was decent at escorting infantry around as well. I certainly don't want to start out with anything that's going to obligate me to bring along 8 of those myrmidon things.

**Grey Templar**

Deflection alone isn't enough to make bringing a bunch of troops/solos with him worthwhile. Ret troops really want some offensive buffs, and all he brings is some minor shooting protection and Pathfinder, but he's much better upkeeping Synergy, sitting in the back, and handing out Focus to his jacks to build up Synergy.

If you want a troop focused caster, I would look at Thyron, Issyria, or Rhan. They each have a unique playstyle as well, not really any specific overlap.

Battlecollege's tactical advice isn't reliable as its still a wiki, and much of the advice is very old or just wrong. Really all its good for is learning about what a specific model does in a generic sense, not how it fits in the overall scheme of things.

**GrimDork**

Ahh good to know. Scratch that perhaps, asxcool as the model is I'm not sure I would like to paint 8 griffons.

I'm not necessarily interested in loads of infantry, just read it as a way to use that dude.

Sounds like I'm interested enough to keep delving down this rabbit hole, so I'll have to do some more concentrated research.

Or do what I usually do and buy things to paint and worry abiut making it work later

**Falkman**

GrimDork wrote:
asxcool as the model is I'm not sure I would like to paint 8 griffons.

Definitely not the most fun experience! He doesn't have to be that extreme in his spam, I've personally played him with an Aspis, 5 Griffons and Imperatus as his warjacks, and then complemented that with a unit of Invictors, 2 Arcanist solos, Eiryss the angel of retribution, and Lanyssa Ryssyll, the nyss sorceress. Still a fair amount of Griffons but at least not 8 of them.

Grey Templar wrote:
You'll never use more than 1 Griffon outside of this list.

That's not exactly true. There are popular versions of both Kaelyssa's Force wall theme and Thyron lists that use 2-3 Griffons. I've even seen people playing Thyron with 5 Griffons and reporting success.

**GrimDork**

Hmm, interesting. 5 griffons still sounds like too many at this point, but I guess I wouldn't have to do them all at once.

So I've gone over the catalog and determined those models which I like the most, wonder if there's any way to mash some or all of them into a workable force?
My choices are primarily Aesthetic in nature, I'm relying on you guys for soundness of the list

Spoiler:

I think primarily I'm after something that has a smattering of everything without too much repetition. Combined with whichever boss makes it work. Sense is made?

So...TLDR.. Out of eVyros, Thyron, Kaelyssa, and Garryth.. who's best supported by mage hunters, Destor Thanes, a mix of Griffon/Manticore/Chimera/Sphinx (arm blades and claws!), and maybe Dawnguard Sentinels?

**Falkman**

GrimDork wrote:
Seems he wants a lot of griffons or some kind of theme list, both sound spammy?

Yeah, the Synergy spell that he has is so good it's what you focus his lists around, and the Griffon is the perfect warjack for that spell. So you end up with a bunch of them plus Imperatus and then maybe a unit for support.

GrimDork wrote:
I assume with them being *heavy* warjacks you don't take very many of them.

It depends really. Most factions usually only take a few warjacks, but being a heavy has nothing to do with that. If anything, light warjacks are the rare ones because they usually don't hit hard enough to be considered.

GrimDork wrote:
Discordia is cool though that looks like it's linked with a specific caster. Looks like the same thing with Moros (maybe one of the coolest looking myrmidons).

While these character warjacks have fluff ties to specific casters they're by no means tied to only work with those casters in the game. Discordia gets no bonuses at all for being taken with Rahn, and is in fact much more popular with Ravyn. It's a great warjack though and can probably work pretty well with any Retribution caster.
Moros does gain the Apparition rule if he is taken with Garryth, but even without that rule he is good enough to work with some other casters. In fact I would say Garryth is one of the casters who gets the least out of Moros even with that extra rule. Moros works great with Thyron, Vyros2, Rahn, Ossyan and Issyria though.

GrimDork wrote:
Griffon seems cool and something of a staple.

I wouldn't call it a staple, but it sees play with several of our casters.

GrimDork wrote:
The Dawnguard Scyir is alright, I'd take one for game value before painting, but I wouldn't mind painting one if it were useful.

Oh yeah the Scyir, he is also a really terrible model so if you're only into him for gameplay reasons you can refrain from buying one.

GrimDork wrote:
So. Of eVyros, Thyron, Kaelyssa, and Garryth.. which (if any) is best supported by the eclectic mix of minis I prefer?

I think Thyron is your best bet. I don't really like the Sphinx for your heavy, it doesn't hit hard enough. I would recommend a Banshee or Imperatus instead (Imperatus is absolutely crazy with Thyron, and have you seen the model?!).

Something like this could be a pretty decent list (not an optimal build but effective enough):

Points: 50/50
Thyron, Sword of Truth (*5pts)
* Griffon (4pts)
* Griffon (4pts)
* Imperatus (12pts)
Dawnguard Sentinels (Leader and 9 Grunts) (9pts)
* Dawnguard Sentinel Officer & Standard (2pts)
House Shyeel Battle Mages (Leader and 5 Grunts) (5pts) OR Stormfall archers (Leader and 3 Grunts) (5pts)
Mage Hunter Strikeforce (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
* Mage Hunter Commander (2pts)
Arcanist (1pts)
Arcanist (1pts)
Dawnguard Destor Thane (4pts)
Narn, Mage Hunter of Ios (3pts)

**GrimDork**

Yes, Imperatus is awesome. I was hesitant about him because I thought he may be restricted to a specific caster.

I like the list you propose.

It has many of my favorite things. It also has little repetition.

If I were to collect this (or something similar) in any kind of order, which would it be? Obviously Thyron would have to be in the first purchase, but what would be the more effective first 25 points?

I also wonder if I stuck to something like that if I should get the starter box (for value, although it only has one griffon of use to this list) or skip it and focus on Thyron and the other stuff.

Kind of neat that you need ~40 models for a.. what is 50 points a full sized game then?

**Falkman**

GrimDork wrote:
Yes, Imperatus is awesome. I was hesitant about him because I thought he may be restricted to a specific caster.

No, there is only one model in the game that can only be taken with a specific caster, and that is the big pirate cannon. Some models have the Animosity X rule, which means they can't be taken in the same army as X (for example the Nyss hunters has Animosity Blighted, so cannot be taken in the same army as any Blighted models) but this is a very rare rule. In general you can take whichever models you want together.

GrimDork wrote:
If I were to collect this (or something similar) in any kind of order, which would it be? Obviously Thyron would have to be in the first purchase, but what would be the more effective first 25 points?

Either of these suggestions would make for decent and fun 25 point lists I think:

Points: 25/25
Thyron, Sword of Truth (*5pts)
* Imperatus (12pts)
Mage Hunter Strikeforce (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
* Mage Hunter Commander (2pts)
Arcanist (1pts)
Dawnguard Destor Thane (4pts)
Narn, Mage Hunter of Ios (3pts)

Points: 25/25
Thyron, Sword of Truth (*5pts)
* Imperatus (12pts)
Dawnguard Sentinels (Leader and 9 Grunts) (9pts)
House Shyeel Battle Mages (Leader and 5 Grunts) (5pts) OR Stormfall Archers (Leader and 3 Grunts) (5pts)
Arcanist (1pts)
Narn, Mage Hunter of Ios (3pts)

GrimDork wrote:
I also wonder if I stuck to something like that if I should get the starter box (for value, although it only has one griffon of use to this list) or skip it and focus on Thyron and the other stuff.

If you are completely new to the game and want to learn to play it the battle box will be a great buy. Battle box games are the best way to start learning the game so even if the models in the box won't make it into your first lists after you graduate from battle box games, they will teach you the game really well.

GrimDork wrote:
Kind of neat that you need ~40 models for a.. what is 50 points a full sized game then?

50 points is the most commonly played game size at tournaments and for most experienced players. 35 points is also fairly popular.
The model count of the game is generally low enough (there are some outliers, like Cryxian infantry swarms) that it feels comfortable to paint an army but still enough to make it an intricate strategy game. It's the perfect size in my opinion.

**GrimDork**

Yeah, sounds like a good size. About what I wish 40k was, a few units, ONE or possibly two vehicles. I think that Maelstrom's Edge game Dakka kickstarted has a similar size. A bit more of an army feel than infinity/skirmishier titles, but without trying to cram the table full of all everything.

I'm not gonna lie, I'm totally fine with metal models too. I know some people curse the day they have to work on another one, but not me.

Now I wonder if I can source another model for the Arcanist. I don't hate him, but two of the same sculpt would bother me, maybe something around. Far future concern.

Thanks for all the help

**Grey Templar**

The Arcanist probably wouldn't be too hard to convert to look different enough to satisfy you. Give him a slightly different pose.

**GrimDork**

Yeah, I'm sure they will grow on me. It's. It a bad sculpt at all.