Punishing one upgrade

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**Vakruz**

Is it just me, or does 12 points for 1 more attack dice seem totally overpriced?

**Azreal13**

It exists in a vacuum right now, so no, it is impossible to tell.

Plus, I think the upgrade brings it more or less in line with other ships with a similar stat line doesn't it?

**krodarklorr**

No, not really. Consider it's a large ship, with a turret weapon, that can barrel roll. It also has a white 2-speed Segnor's loop, judging by the picture of it's dial. So arc dodging would be really easy. Also, think about all the other ships that have a 3 attack turret: YT-1300 (PS9 Han is 47 points base with no barrel roll), Decimator (PS8 and a ton of health). Making Dengar 45 points with a 3 attack turret, but including his PS9, decent pilot ability, and maneuverability, it's reasonably priced.

**They call me Griff**

I've been working to nail down a point formula for quite a while now and I'd agree that it is overpriced.
My formula (at worst case) is only 3.5% off. What the actual numbers are is debatable, but I'm about say... 95% certain that no individual number is more than 1 point off.
I calculate attack value 2 to 3 as a 6 point increase. I'd bet a fair amount that this card is overpriced if it costs over 8 points (which it does).
Playtesting obviously comes into play, so we'll see if people actually use it and think it is worth the points once it is released.

**krodarklorr**

They call me Griff wrote:
I've been working to nail down a point formula for quite a while now and I'd agree that it is overpriced.
My formula (at worst case) is only 3.5% off. What the actual numbers are is debatable, but I'm about say... 95% certain that no individual number is more than 1 point off.
I calculate attack value 2 to 3 as a 6 point increase. I'd bet a fair amount that this card is overpriced if it costs over 8 points (which it does).
Playtesting obviously comes into play, so we'll see if people actually use it and think it is worth the points once it is released.

The problem is, you can't only take into account the attack value. You have to take into account the ship that it's on. Dengar is a much higher pilot skill YT-2400, essentially. That can be deadly in itself. And, it's main weapon is a turret.

**statu**

It's almost impossible to talk about the punishing one, until we have more information. As far as I'm aware we haven't seen the whole dial yet. It may be that every turn to the left is possible, and white/green, but every one it has to the right is a red. We've got to remember this thing has an asymmetric dial, which would have been factored into its cost and the cost of the upgrade. If you also consider Dengars ability, whereby he possibly gets to attack twice per round, it seems appropriately priced

**MrMoustaffa**

No, its right.

Think about it, Dengar will be Ps9, have an ept, an agromech (means he's getting stuff like green 3's, spending focus and getting target locks, etc.) built in barrel roll, and apparently a white segnors loop. Putting him at 45pts base for 3 attack sounds good, if maybe a little underpriced since he can make a second attack if he can keep his attackers in arc.

**ScootyPuffJunior**

The precedence for this already exists in the game with the YT-1300. Outer Rim Smuggler has a stat line of 2/1/6/4 for 27 points, while Chewie, Lando, and Han have a stat line of 3/1/8/5 for 42, 44, and 46 point respectively. It's as if they have a baked in Millennium Falcon upgrade in their point cost (since they all fly the Falcon in the movies).

How FFG is handling Punishing One's title is how they should have handled the Millennium Falcon title.

**Vakruz**

Well I guess I hadn't thought it like that, guess at 1st glance I didn't realize the manuver dial

**Mathieu Raymond**

Since I haven't seen the Title card, care to elaborate, SPJ?

**ScootyPuffJunior**

Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Since I haven't seen the Title card, care to elaborate, SPJ?

The Millennium Falcon title card on costs one point and gives you the evade action:

All and all, it's pretty lame... the evade action is nice obviously, that that isn't what makes the Falcon special, it's all of the "special modifications" Han has made to her. That becomes obvious when you look at the four pilot cards that come with the ship. The generic pilot, Outer Rim Smuggler, looks like this:

It's super cheap at 27 points and has okay stats. However, the named pilots pay the "Millennium Falcon tax" and have upgraded attack, hull, and shield:

Chewie, Lando, and Han all fly the Falcon at some point in the movies and the game reflects this, which is why their ship stats are intrinsically better than the Outer Rim Smuggler flying a basic YT-1300 (and also why they cost at least 15 points more). Since they needed a way to get the Millennium Falcon title card into the game for thematic reasons, they made it cheap and gave it an okay ability. In retrospect, the argument could be made that the designers should have conferred these stat bonuses to the ship via the Millennium Falcon title. I think they realize this and that's why the Punishing One title does what it does at its cost:

For 45 points, you can an awesome pilot ability, decent agility, the very powerful barrel roll action, good upgrade slots, and a 3 attack PWT.

**Mathieu Raymond**

Yowza. It brought water to my eyes the first time I saw it. You're not used to seeing an upgrade that costly. Although it is very useful. From my limited experience, I would rather spend 12 pts on an extra dice that I will get to roll throughout the game, rather than, say 6 pts of torpedoes that might end up like throwing eggs at a brick wall.

Am I right in assuming that if no one fires at Dengar, then he cannot shoot a second time during the round?

**ScootyPuffJunior**

Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Am I right in assuming that if no one fires at Dengar, then he cannot shoot a second time during the round?

Yes.

His ability only triggers when he is defending. If no one targets him for an attack, he won't have to defend against anything.

**locarno24**

As noted, an extra attack die usually sets you back about 6 points:

TIE fighter to equivalent TIE interceptor is ~ 6 points
Heavy Laser Cannon is 7 points
Most missiles + extra munitions (i.e. not "one use" are ~6-7 points.

So why is Punishing 1 12?

As noted - firstly it's a turret. Dengar will always be shooting when a fixed-arc ship can expect to miss at least one turn of fire in a game.

Secondly, it has the potential to be applied to one of the only PS9 pilots in the game, and on a ship with a whole swathe of slots (astromech, elite talent, crew) and therefore it's a very, very good attack

Thirdly, due to dengar's pilot ability, you have a decent chance of it being used twice per round.

I like it. As noted, it puts Dengar in the same league points and capability wise as Han, but it does so without making the Punishing One title an auto-include. Dengar without the title can instead be a serious torpedo-boat, for example -

Deadeye, an R4 Agromech, Recon Specialist, Proton Torpedos and Extra Munitions gives you the ability to paste a target with rerolled proton torpedoes twice in one turn

If you're not wanting to shell out for Punishing One, a Hot Shot Blaster and Munitions Failsafe is a much less pricy option.

**streamdragon**

locarno24 wrote:
a Hot Shot Blaster and Munitions Failsafe

O_O

It literally never occurred to me that those two would work together.

**Crazyterran**

Dengar: predator, unhinged, k4, punishing one, engine upgrade, glitterstim

Talonbane Cobra: predator, glitterstim, cluster missiles, engine upgrade.

99 total. Probably not the most competitive, but god damn is that Dengar going to be dodgy, and I can't see him not taking the punishing one title - unless maybe if you are taking an expensive torpedo load out of some kind. Even then, once you blow your load, you are left with a two attack large base...

**krodarklorr**

Crazyterran wrote:
Dengar: predator, unhinged, k4, punishing one, engine upgrade, glitterstim

Talonbane Cobra: predator, glitterstim, cluster missiles, engine upgrade.

99 total. Probably not the most competitive, but god damn is that Dengar going to be dodgy, and I can't see him not taking the punishing one title - unless maybe if you are taking an expensive torpedo load out of some kind. Even then, once you blow your load, you are left with a two attack large base...

I dunno man, I'd rather take PTL on Dengar, to take effect of that Unhinged. Also so he could barrel roll and boost in the same turn.

**ScootyPuffJunior**

krodarklorr wrote:
Crazyterran wrote:
Dengar: predator, unhinged, k4, punishing one, engine upgrade, glitterstim

Talonbane Cobra: predator, glitterstim, cluster missiles, engine upgrade.

99 total. Probably not the most competitive, but god damn is that Dengar going to be dodgy, and I can't see him not taking the punishing one title - unless maybe if you are taking an expensive torpedo load out of some kind. Even then, once you blow your load, you are left with a two attack large base...

I dunno man, I'd rather take PTL on Dengar, to take effect of that Unhinged. Also so he could barrel roll and boost in the same turn.

As a regular Dash player, I can confirm that barrel rolling and boosting on a large base ship in the same turn is totally awesome. especially at PS 9.

**Turnip Jedi**

It most likely about right, as other folks have pointed out see the named YT pilots or Outrider plus Cannon upgrades

I kind of like it as it you gives you the choice of running stock Dengar, chunky Dengar with assorted upgrades but no title or Fat Dengar with Title and Upgrades, if the Title was baked into the Pilot card you'd more or less only
have the Fat Dengar option

**krodarklorr**

All this talk of the title, and I'm just waiting for the damn model to come out.

Wave VIII can't get here soon enough.

**ScootyPuffJunior**

krodarklorr wrote:
Wave VIII can't get here soon enough.

My wallet disagrees.

**Mathieu Raymond**

I gather you don't play much W40K anymore, SPJ?

**Nicorex**

Well if you would stop wasting cash on frivolity's like food and shelter SPJ, you would always have a fat wallet for X-Wing toy's.

**ScootyPuffJunior**

Mathieu Raymond wrote:
I gather you don't play much W40K anymore, SPJ?

I never really did.

I was more of a collector/painter and have only played a couple of games. I haven't bought a GW model for myself in over a year and every one I paint now is for someone else.

**krodarklorr**

ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Mathieu Raymond wrote:
I gather you don't play much W40K anymore, SPJ?
I never really did.

I was more of a collector/painter and have only played a couple of games. I haven't bought a GW model for myself in over a year and every one I paint now is for someone else.

Good man. More money for X-wing.

**Mathieu Raymond**

krodarklorr wrote:
ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Mathieu Raymond wrote:
I gather you don't play much W40K anymore, SPJ?
I never really did.

I was more of a collector/painter and have only played a couple of games. I haven't bought a GW model for myself in over a year and every one I paint now is for someone else.

Good man. More money for X-wing.

Beat me to it. I saw the new starter at the FLGS today. I didn't buy because I have one coming in the mail... but I bought a little toolbox to convert into an Empire/First Order carrying case.