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First off, I apologize if there's already a thread like this, but I didn't want to do a major necro so here we go.

I'm building up an Ork army, going with quantity over quality, so for my second army, I wanted something different. I looked around, and DE seemed just that. Fast, fragile units that were individually powerful on their own. After looking at the various Kabals (I decided on Kabal of the Last Hatred because I like their lore and the color deep purple), I took a peek at the codex. Since my only experience so far is with the ork codex, the DE codex is, to be frank, overwhelming. Granted I only glanced at it, but orks are pretty straightforward when building an army; either do or don't put armor on your boyz, get some vehicles if you need to go faster, etc. In short, everything in the ork army is very clear in its role. The DE list is a bit more obscure, at least to a new player.

Basically, I'd like some advice on where to start. I definitely want to go for the "quality over quantity" approach, having a few, strong units. I imagine haemonculi are the bruisers, while the DE themselves are the quick strike forces. Now, I'm not asking for someone to make a list for me; I just want to know what a good core would be, something I could start building off of. I'd greatly appreciate any help.

Warriors in raiders vs warriors in venoms is a debate that will rage eternally.

Wyches are abysmal in this edition, do NOT pick them up.

Here's a breakdown of my own (subjective) opinion on what's good and what's not:

Optimal Choices (If I leave these units out of a list, I feel like I'm missing out on something.)
HQ- None
Troops- Warriors in Venoms
Elites- Grotesques
Fast Attack- Reavers, Venoms, Scourges
Heavy Support- None
Formations- Scalpel Squadron, Grotesquerie

Reasonable Choices (Useful.  I'm not going to cry if I can't take them, but I might still take them.)
HQ- All
Troops- Warriors in Raiders
Elites- Trueborn, Mandrakes, Incubi
Fast Attack- Raiders, Razorwing
Heavy Support- Talos Engines, Ravagers
Formations- Raiding Party, Scarlet Epicureans, Corpsethief Claw, Dark Artisan

Sub-par choices (If I have to take these, I'm handicapping myself.)
HQ- None.
Troops- Wyches
Elites- Bloodbrides, Wracks
Fast Attack- Beast packs, Hellions
Heavy Support- Voidraven Bombers, Cronos Engines
Formations- Covenite Fleshcorps

I strongly prefer fielding units of five warriors with a blaster, riding in a venom, as my troop tax. Four to five of those is very cheap, and hard for opponents to handle with their quantity.

Quick questions from another DE prosbie Jimsolo: Would you rate the Razorwing as sub-par or reasonable? Also, are Wracks only sub-par in the main book, or does Haemonculus Covens make them better?

As far as Warriors in Venoms vs. Warriors in Raiders, I fell like the answer is probably "Both". TheVenoms are harder targets and are cheaper, but the Raiders put out more firepower and are better for taking objectives.

I was probably going to go with either just Venoms or mostly Venoms and some Raiders. For what I want, I think Venoms suit me better. But I can definitely see the perks of both.

Also, that list you gave will help tons. Thanks a bundle.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Quick questions from another DE prosbie Jimsolo: Would you rate the Razorwing as sub-par or reasonable? Also, are Wracks only sub-par in the main book, or does Haemonculus Covens make them better?

Razorwings are okay, I always have terrible luck with them. Thanks, list edited! Covens don't make Wracks much better (a little bit, but not much), Covens formations make Wracks better.

As far as Warriors in Venoms vs. Warriors in Raiders, I fell like the answer is probably "Both". TheVenoms are harder targets and are cheaper, but the Raiders put out more firepower and are better for taking objectives.

Indeed. There are benefits to both.

It's a shame you find the Razorwing to be sub-par, as I find mine to be one of my better units.

I use a lot of Kabalites.
Kabalites in Raiders with Splinter Wracks and a Splinter Cannon and a special of choice (I'd recommend blaster or nothing) makes a super killy poison gunboat.
But Kabalites in Venoms are hard to hit and are also very killy.
Kabalite Trueborn with Blasters in Venoms are killy too, but expensive, so watch your points.
Incubi make good bodyguards for Archons.
Razorwings can be excellent or terrible, depending on your rolling.
Ravagers make for good anti-tank.

Also, if you want to do something fun, do check out Jimsolo's Eldar Freakshow list.

I don't think they're subpar. They're reasonable, definitely. I just don't feel like I'm missing out if I don't take one, or that they're a 'must have' unit.

Freakshow. Indeed.

Also, you may want to check out Mushkilla's guides over on The Dark City website. You should check the site out anyway, it's a great community.

The most effective Dark Eldar list in highly competitive GT environments involve large amounts of MSU ObSec vehicles

I.e. Lhlamaen in a venom, 6x warriors in venoms/raiders, 3x FA Raiders (Either to run empty solo, or use Eldar allies), 3x Ravagers. Allied detachment with more of the above, or CWE.

Should be call "DIRT" eldar vs dark eldar.

 Lord Commissar wrote:
The most effective Dark Eldar list in highly competitive GT environments involve large amounts of MSU ObSec vehicles

I.e. Lhlamaen in a venom, 6x warriors in venoms/raiders, 3x FA Raiders (Either to run empty solo, or use Eldar allies), 3x Ravagers. Allied detachment with more of the above, or CWE.

Ditch the FA raiders for Reavers and/or Scourge. Also Ravager are cursed. don't expect much out of that ravagers, I swear that unit is cursed and never performs as well as it should. There is just nothing else worth taking over it in the slot,=.

JimSolo's ratings are accurate and will serve to be a good guide. I like the razorwing, but I don't think its super competitive. It is a great model that frequently one of the most enjoyable unit in my army though. Just fire all four missiles as soon as it comes on the board.

Ravagers, and Razorwings are both going to fluctuate depending on your play style and local meta, too. A lot of the middle tier options can be wonderful or terrible, depending.

Trystis wrote:


JimSolo's ratings are accurate and will serve to be a good guide. I like the razorwing, but I don't think its super competitive. It is a great model that frequently one of the most enjoyable unit in my army though. Just fire all four missiles as soon as it comes on the board.

That's actually something kind of confusing about DE. The Power from Pain rule makes them stronger as the game goes on, but they definitely seem like a blitzkrieg-style army. Hit 'em fast and early, so it's the synergy seems off. At this point I'm thinking of largely hit-and-run tactics with some tarpits thrown in for good measure.

The way it generally works is that the initial strike does a ton of damage. If your opponent is on his game he can rally, since you're fairly fragile. However, he has to rally very swiftly, because all your units grow stronger as time goes on, and by turn 4+ it'll be your turn to rally.

So basically, sent in initial shock forces to blow the crap out of everything; these will generally be the squishier but hard hitting. Then, during the middle phases, play defensively and wait for the buffs. Once you get them, go all-out and strike again?

Ideally, I like to hit them hard enough that they think they've already lost. A surprising number of opponents will begin playing a defensive game, (especially in competitive settings where they degree of win/loss matters a great deal) even though they could turn the game around if they press their advantage.

If you can do enough damage to legitimately cripple them from the jump, then it's just a matter of mopping up, which is probably the goal for most games. (Hard to pull off though.)

Playing the mid turns defensively can work, especially with certain units. Some units are probably going to work better with a balls-to-the-wall playstyle, and it's just a matter of experience figuring out which is which and when it's which.

One last piece of advice I need, is it too early to go ahead and start building this army, or should I just focus on one at a time? My ork army is at 1000-ish points (but nowhere near ready. Rougly 3/4ths of it are just boyz), but I still figure I can build both armies at the same time.

I am a build-whore. The building is probably my favorite part. (Seriously, I just spent a week building a bunch of Hellions and converting them to be doing cool kick-flips and stuff, even though I will never ever use them.) I would build as many as I could get my hands on.

If you think you won't get burned out, go for it. That's going to be a huge personal preference thing, dependent on which aspects of the hobby you enjoy the most.

I enjoy painting quite a bit. With my orks, I don't spend as long because there's a buttload of them. With DE, I actually want to focus a lot more on quality, so I'd probably just buy a couple DE models and see how the whole "detailed painting" thing jives with me. I can at least do that to start.