Loyalist chapters with traitor seed

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**triplegrim**

We know that the red scorpions probably is an emprerors childrens chapter, and that Blood Ravens prob hails form 1k sons. Marines Malovent is maybe an attempt to make a chapter from existing stores of world eater genes.

Is this canon, and do we have a complete list of these chapters?

**jareddm**

triplegrim wrote:
We know that the red scorpions probably is an emprerors childrens chapter,

We don't, and in fact there's plenty of alternate explanations for the way they act. By comparison, the Death Eagles are a confirmed Emperor's Children successor.

Blood Ravens prob hails form 1k sons.

Much more likely

Marines Malovent is maybe an attempt to make a chapter from existing stores of world eater genes.

Iron Warriors are far more likely but still unconfirmed.

**Orblivion**

None of the theories, as well "known" as they may be, are canon.

**triplegrim**

Would be cool though if they made it so; would give us 9 more loyalist type chapters and successors, if they went that direction.

**Mantorok**

We know that the Ultramarines grew in size after the two redacted primarchs went "missing".
That could very well be traitor seed.

**Psienesis**

Mantorok wrote:
We know that the Ultramarines grew in size after the two redacted primarchs went "missing".
That could very well be traitor seed.

It isn't. The only source for that is two Word Bearers bitching that their rival Legion is bigger and better than they are. Even during the GC, the UM were the Efficient Marines. They had more recruiting worlds, the least-restrictive standards and the most-efficient system for turning recruits into Marines.

**Mantorok**

Psienesis wrote:
Mantorok wrote:
We know that the Ultramarines grew in size after the two redacted primarchs went "missing".
That could very well be traitor seed.

It isn't. The only source for that is two Word Bearers bitching that their rival Legion is bigger and better than they are. Even during the GC, the UM were the Efficient Marines. They had more recruiting worlds, the least-restrictive standards and the most-efficient system for turning recruits into Marines.

Oh. You're right. And here I was taking it as fact.

Pretty sure I can't take the whinings of traitors as truth huh...

**Engrenages**

Psienesis wrote:
Mantorok wrote:
We know that the Ultramarines grew in size after the two redacted primarchs went "missing".
That could very well be traitor seed.

It isn't. The only source for that is two Word Bearers bitching that their rival Legion is bigger and better than they are. Even during the GC, the UM were the Efficient Marines. They had more recruiting worlds, the least-restrictive standards and the most-efficient system for turning recruits into Marines.

What the word bearers said, more precisely, is that the UM started to grow in size when the two missing legions "disappeared", so it is clearly a hint.

**Psienesis**

Which is basically a conspiracy theory of coincidental events. The WB, of course, were unaware of what was going on on any of the UMs recruiting worlds. Mayhaps there had been a strong recruiting drive the past 10 or 20 years, and now 200 worlds were each releasing 100 newly-minted Ultramarines.

Of course, it's much easier to ignore all of the things the UM had going for them and instead assume they cheated. Despite the fact that "cheating" is just not how the UM function, then or now.

**Vash108**

I thought that Red Scorpions were more than likely UM successor.

I wonder about the Sons of Medusa, isn't their symbol the original Death Guard one?

**aldo**

Similar, but we know they were created due to a Schism that affected the Mechanichum (and obviously the Iron Hands).
The IH guys who disagreed with the canon beliefs were given permision to secede and formed a new chapter.
The Mechanichum guys who disagreed suffered a less nice fate.

Silver Skulls are sort of maybe nearly confirmed as loyalist IW descendants in the HH novels.

Probably at least part of the Cursed Founding was made out of Traitor gene-stock, but they would have no cultural relation to the original legion.

Soul Drinkers? they aren't Sons of Dorn, that much we know.

**Vash108**

Aren't Blood Ravens rumored to be Thousand Sons?

**Psienesis**

Rumored, yes.

**Sir Samuel Buca**

There are lots of rumours around traitor gene seed being re-used over the millennia, it's heavily rumoured that the Minotaurs are from World Eater stock, or at least partially. It can never be proven by anyone outside the Mechanicum, and I doubt those testing the gene seed are going to say much, sine their labs would hold accountability for KNOWING what traitor gene stock was like.

**ChazSexington**

As mentioned, Red Scorpions are not confirmed, but rumoured. More likely cases include the Blood Ravens being Corvidae-Cult Thousand Sons due to their traits and symbols, Silver Skulls are potentially Iron Warrior descendants, Minotaurs may be created from War Hound gene-seed, and Sons of Antaeus may be Death Guard.

Psienesis wrote:
Which is basically a conspiracy theory of coincidental events. The WB, of course, were unaware of what was going on on any of the UMs recruiting worlds. Mayhaps there had been a strong recruiting drive the past 10 or 20 years, and now 200 worlds were each releasing 100 newly-minted Ultramarines.

Of course, it's much easier to ignore all of the things the UM had going for them and instead assume they cheated. Despite the fact that "cheating" is just not how the UM function, then or now.

I'm 50%/50% on it. I wouldn't even say they cheated - the Emperor may just have hand-waved it and gone with the UMs getting them, due to Guilliman's superior administrative pen-pushing ability.

Vash108 wrote:
I thought that Red Scorpions were more than likely UM successor.

I wonder about the Sons of Medusa, isn't their symbol the original Death Guard one?

However, we KNOW they're Iron Hands successors due to the Moirae schism.

**natpri771**

Rumours Include:
-Blood Ravens: Thousand Sons
-Death Eagles: Emperor's Children (Possibly Raven Guard)
-Storm Wardens: World Eaters
-Silver Skulls: Iron Warriors
-Carcharodons: Night Lords*

Spoiler:

**Col. Dash**

Never heard that about the Red Scorpions. The last I read was they were a later attempt by the mechanicum to create the purest geneseed available thus why they tend to have more than their share of pride and doubly their share of contempt for the other chapters and why they have apothecaries in extremely high numbers.

Silver Skulls are a step away from being confirmed as former IW which likely will never happen 100%. Same paint scheme less the hazard stripes, same insignia.

Never heard that Carcharodons were NL. I thought it was all but confirmed they are Raven Guard from one of the Reaving Fleets that Corax sent out to get rid of elements of the legion who didn't quite see his vision of where they were going. I doubt enough loyalist Night Lords survived to form a new chapter. They were traitor long before the Heresy(or stayed loyal to the end depending on who you ask) and everyone was fanatically loyal to the primarch along the way.

**ChazSexington**

Storm Wardens are World Eaters? Where's that rumour coming from?

**Red Marine**

What about loyalists that got folded into organizations like the Inquisition or Grey Knights? Didn't Garo become the beginning of the Inquisition?

**EmpNortonII**

natpri771 wrote:

-Carcharodons: Night Lords*

Spoiler:

*Despite rumours that they are Night Lords, the Carcharodons are basically confirmed to be Raven Guard. If you want an explanation for their brutal tactics, RG have a defect in their gene seed called "Ash Blindness". Basically, when a Raven Guard astartes is under severe pressure in a combat situation, his eyes turn completely black and he loses all sense of self preservation and just throws himself into the enemy without a second thought and relentlessly butchers all of them. This is why the Raven Guard Legion developed Moritats. Although it is similar to the Black Rage that the Blood Angels, it is because of a gene-seed defect not due to a psychic imprint and most recover from it. A further explanation for this would be the Xeric tribes that made up the legion before the discovery of Corax. They were presumably located in what was once North America (which would explain the RG's Native American motif). These guys were extremely brutal and believed that victory could only be achieved through the complete domination of the foe. Corax banished most of them from the legion, as he saw disturbing similarities between them and the slavers of Lycaeus. So, basically, the Carcharodons are what remains of the Terran astartes that were banished from the Raven Guard by Corax.

There is one, and only one, conclusion, to be drawn from this: "You special snowflake Chapter of traitors will never be half as badass as a bunch of reject Raven Guard- suck on a giant shark dick."

**Slayer-Fan123**

EmpNortonII wrote:
natpri771 wrote:

-Carcharodons: Night Lords*

Spoiler:

*Despite rumours that they are Night Lords, the Carcharodons are basically confirmed to be Raven Guard. If you want an explanation for their brutal tactics, RG have a defect in their gene seed called "Ash Blindness". Basically, when a Raven Guard astartes is under severe pressure in a combat situation, his eyes turn completely black and he loses all sense of self preservation and just throws himself into the enemy without a second thought and relentlessly butchers all of them. This is why the Raven Guard Legion developed Moritats. Although it is similar to the Black Rage that the Blood Angels, it is because of a gene-seed defect not due to a psychic imprint and most recover from it. A further explanation for this would be the Xeric tribes that made up the legion before the discovery of Corax. They were presumably located in what was once North America (which would explain the RG's Native American motif). These guys were extremely brutal and believed that victory could only be achieved through the complete domination of the foe. Corax banished most of them from the legion, as he saw disturbing similarities between them and the slavers of Lycaeus. So, basically, the Carcharodons are what remains of the Terran astartes that were banished from the Raven Guard by Corax.

There is one, and only one, conclusion, to be drawn from this: "You special snowflake Chapter of traitors will never be half as badass as a bunch of reject Raven Guard- suck on a giant shark dick."

The Carcharodons are pretty cool to be fair.

**nareik**

Battle cry: I'm a Carcharodon, I'm a Carcharodon, suck my bolter, I'm a Carcharadon!

**casvalremdeikun**

I think the fact that there is overwhelming evidence to support the Blood Ravens being a loyalist division of the Thousand Sons could go both ways. It could be a red herring, but more than likely, they are just the remnants of the Corvidae Fellowship of Thousand Sons that were sent away during the Burning of Prospero.

Storm Wardens are rumored to be derived from the White Scars, but could also be from the World Eaters.

**Lord Blackscale**

EmpNortonII wrote:
natpri771 wrote:

-Carcharodons: Night Lords*

Spoiler:

*Despite rumours that they are Night Lords, the Carcharodons are basically confirmed to be Raven Guard. If you want an explanation for their brutal tactics, RG have a defect in their gene seed called "Ash Blindness". Basically, when a Raven Guard astartes is under severe pressure in a combat situation, his eyes turn completely black and he loses all sense of self preservation and just throws himself into the enemy without a second thought and relentlessly butchers all of them. This is why the Raven Guard Legion developed Moritats. Although it is similar to the Black Rage that the Blood Angels, it is because of a gene-seed defect not due to a psychic imprint and most recover from it. A further explanation for this would be the Xeric tribes that made up the legion before the discovery of Corax. They were presumably located in what was once North America (which would explain the RG's Native American motif). These guys were extremely brutal and believed that victory could only be achieved through the complete domination of the foe. Corax banished most of them from the legion, as he saw disturbing similarities between them and the slavers of Lycaeus. So, basically, the Carcharodons are what remains of the Terran astartes that were banished from the Raven Guard by Corax.

There is one, and only one, conclusion, to be drawn from this: "You special snowflake Chapter of traitors will never be half as badass as a bunch of reject Raven Guard- suck on a giant shark dick."

Exalted!