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So, my big problem with D-weapons as they stand is they tend to vary wildly - each shot having a ~15% chance of deleting what you fire at tends to make games with multiple large models incredibly swingy. I for one would much rather see longer, more drawn out fights between models that cost 300+ points. The problem is making them still worth their (often) high point costs and giving them a niche in the game as is.

What I'd suggest is shifting them to a save-reducing role - this would make them more reliable even with a lower total wound count. A damage chart like the following, perhaps:

1 - No Effect
2-3 - 2 Wounds or Hull Points, -1 to saves against this attack
4-5 - 2 Wounds or Hull Points, -2 to saves against this attack
6 - 2 Wounds or Hull Points, no saves against this attack

The problem isnt D weapons. The problem is Eldar Distortion Weapons = Destroyer Weapons.

The Wraithknights are Gargantuan Creatures so they should have access to StrD. The Wraith Lords and Guards should not have access to Str D. The Wraithknight is heavily undercosted.
Neither should their flyer. If a flyer has access to str D, then that better be a Super Heavy Flyer amd cost 370pts. But in the case of the OP IMBA Eldar cheese, that plane would be a Gargantuan Flying Creature even though nothing about it makes it a living being.

Wraithlord don't have it, and the flyer has a MUCH weaker version of it.(-1 to the D table, counts as strength 4)

The wraithknight is undercosted, the wraiths only become any sort of issue when they are given exsessive mobility options by way of allies, formations, or wave serpents and these thing either limit force selection or cost even more points to have available. Why leave the D cannon of the list? Nobody brings those up because it is much easier to out maneuver them on the table despite their 2' range.

D weapons need to lose their ability to guaranteed wipe out any model touched that has less than 7 hullpoints. Drop the 6 on the chart to d3+3 and don't let it roll pen results on vehicles that aren't superheavies and it isn't an issue at all.

The effectiveness of D is insane when compared to other weaponry. I have finally used my Eldar with their most current codex for the first time, and my five Wraithguard destroyed an Assaulting Dreadnought with overwatch and then shot and killed some remaining Thunderwolf Calvary models (including a librarian on a bike and his Captain on a thunderwolf, all carrying stormshields), making up for how they previously murdered my Wraithknight in CC. All that for 160 pts mounted in a Waveserpent, and being in the right place at the right time.

I think that D brings an interesting threat level to the game, but access to it should be limited. For instance, perhaps Wraithguard have their old profile, but 1 model per 5 in the squad can upgrade to some better weapon with Strength D, or it's Strength D if they get a 6 when rolling to hit, or something.

Strength D as it is now seems like an appropriate response to bringing huge models with tons of wounds or hull points into regular 40k games, and has a neat feel to it. But being that an Eldar player can comfortably take 1500 pt army comprised almost entirely of models carrying Strength D (see Eldar Wraithhost) is a little crazy.

I like the ITC's house rule on them. They've left melee destroyer weapons as is, and just nerfed the 6 result on ranged destroyer weapons to:
6: Target model takes 3 automatic wounds with no saves allowed, or 3 hull points with a penetrating hit with no saves allowed.

Basically, it gives you the best result of a 2-5 on the D table, and disallows saves. This gets rid of the chance to immediately delete most MCs/GMCs, but still deal a good amount of damage for the 6 roll. So no swingy turn 1 "auto delete" shenanigans.

Bojazz wrote:
I like the ITC's house rule on them. They've left melee destroyer weapons as is, and just nerfed the 6 result on ranged destroyer weapons to:
6: Target model takes 3 automatic wounds with no saves allowed, or 3 hull points with a penetrating hit with no saves allowed.

Basically, it gives you the best result of a 2-5 on the D table, and disallows saves. This gets rid of the chance to immediately delete most MCs/GMCs, but still deal a good amount of damage for the 6 roll. So no swingy turn 1 "auto delete" shenanigans.

and that would be fine if the Eldar weren't allowed to take D weapons as often as other armies take Heavy weapons.

You shouldn't be nerfing D-Weaponry, D-Weapons are fine. The problem is the Eldar's massive access to D-Weaponry. I'd say nerf the back to the S4, AP2, ID on 6s of the old Eldar codex. Personally, I think you should only have access to D if you are a Gargantuan Creature or Super-Heavy (with an exception for things like the Bloodthirster Of Insensate Rage, as it forces it to be I1). Basically, get rid of the D from Wraithguard etc and keep it on the Wraithknight, but make it more expensive (~370pts?)

 natpri771 wrote:
You shouldn't be nerfing D-Weaponry, D-Weapons are fine. The problem is the Eldar's massive access to D-Weaponry. I'd say nerf the back to the S4, AP2, ID on 6s of the old Eldar codex. Personally, I think you should only have access to D if you are a Gargantuan Creature or Super-Heavy (with an exception for things like the Bloodthirster Of Insensate Rage, as it forces it to be I1). Basically, get rid of the D from Wraithguard etc and keep it on the Wraithknight, but make it more expensive (~370pts?)

I think the entire problem of D weapons is because some idiots got together to write the Eldar Codex and decided that they would make it the most OP possible

Except the eldar aren't op because of strength D. Most people who are running abusive eldar lists aren't running wraithguard and vauls wrath support d-cannons. They are running undercosted wraithknights and spamming the crap out of scatterlaser toting undercosted jetbikes.

As for the damage dealt by the poster above to the thunderwolves and dread. You either got REALLY lucky with normal wraithcannon (with 5 shots you may get one hit on over watch, and you should have only mathematically put 1-2 of the others down on average) or you were using the flamer variant wrong because the flamer wouldn't have any way to deny the stormshield and couldn't instant death the cavalry/bikes. If you did use the wraithcannon to kill the wolves, and didn't roll a 6, then strength D did nothing to help because they would have been instant killed by the strength 10.

If a roll of 6 is fine to be instant death for distort, then the only thing you have an issue with is when a roll of 6 kills something immune to instant death. That means eternal warriors and superheavy/gargantuan units. Dropping the 6 result to d3+3 gives them a serious chance at survival without negating the fact that D weapons are supposed to be a nuclear deterrent.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Except the eldar aren't op because of strength D. Most people who are running abusive eldar lists aren't running wraithguard and vauls wrath support d-cannons. They are running undercosted wraithknights and spamming the crap out of scatterlaser toting undercosted jetbikes.

As for the damage dealt by the poster above to the thunderwolves and dread. You either got REALLY lucky with normal wraithcannon (with 5 shots you may get one hit on over watch, and you should have only mathematically put 1-2 of the others down on average) or you were using the flamer variant wrong because the flamer wouldn't have any way to deny the stormshield and couldn't instant death the cavalry/bikes. If you did use the wraithcannon to kill the wolves, and didn't roll a 6, then strength D did nothing to help because they would have been instant killed by the strength 10.

If a roll of 6 is fine to be instant death for distort, then the only thing you have an issue with is when a roll of 6 kills something immune to instant death. That means eternal warriors and superheavy/gargantuan units. Dropping the 6 result to d3+3 gives them a serious chance at survival without negating the fact that D weapons are supposed to be a nuclear deterrent.

he was using the flamers against them which is Auto Hit so D3 auto Strength D hits is insane against elite units like TWC.

D3+3 is OP as hell unless it is a Super heavy or GC,

D strength should be reserved for super heavies and GC only, and they should never be as undercosted as the Wraith Knight.

OK, why charge them if you know that to be the case? And the flamers only cause damage on a 3+ and can't ignore their invul saves. Then you pile on the fact that the hits are all resolved one at a time against the nearest model until it dies and the unit should have been fine.

Say 5 shoot, ten hits on average. So that means the first model will take 6 invuln saveson a three plus making the average death count (if the models all only have 2 wounds) at two models. So two dead (maybe) in what is literally the best case scenario for the supposedly op wraithguard and they would have been crushed if the wolves player had simply charged something in there first.

The opponent got cocky and lost out. That doesn't make the guns op.

The more they nerf strD, the worse off horde armies are in the meta. If there is no counter to the uber units in the game, then they are free to walk through hordes. But those hordes fare well against strD because they are so cheap per model that annihilating one with d6+6 wounds means nothing.

I find strD on infantry and artillery interesting at best, but those platforms are being overshadowed by other options that do actually break the game mathematically. The only time wraithguard are a problem is when allies let them suicide drop or you spend more points on their transport. Why buy a wave serpent when those points can net you more jetbikes? Why buy two units of wraithguard when you can buy a wraithknight for similar cost? StrD can hurt, but it isn't scary by itself. No matter what the platform.

D needs scaling. As it is, the titanic guns of a Warlord Titan are just as strong as those of a Warhound or Shadowsword, or even the chainsaw held by the comparatively minuscule Knights. The only way D currently scales is by number of shots or size of blasts, with a few special rules thrown in to provide minor tweaks. I don't know how this could be achieved, but we need something like a power range; starting with "D1", that might go up to "D5". I'd prefer flat values and rolls instead of all the random tables for the sake of random tables that we currently have.

This is something I've been vaguely working on alongside a system to make Titan-on-Titan combat tactical and engaging.

The thing is that D weapons already scale exponentially based on how much health the target has to lose. You can do 12 wounds to a gretchen, but it won't matter because 11 of them aren't needed. When you get to titan level units you see the destroyer roll of 6 is there to allow the combat to end spectacularly, or at least within a decent amount of time. Averaging the wounds/hull points to 2 and 5 would eliminate the randomness and guarantee a superheavy level model won't inst-die to strD. I just prefer the slight chance the enemy rolls low and doesn't actually kill a rhino.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Except the eldar aren't op because of strength D. Most people who are running abusive eldar lists aren't running wraithguard and vauls wrath support d-cannons. They are running undercosted wraithknights and spamming the crap out of scatterlaser toting undercosted jetbikes.

As for the damage dealt by the poster above to the thunderwolves and dread. You either got REALLY lucky with normal wraithcannon (with 5 shots you may get one hit on over watch, and you should have only mathematically put 1-2 of the others down on average) or you were using the flamer variant wrong because the flamer wouldn't have any way to deny the stormshield and couldn't instant death the cavalry/bikes. If you did use the wraithcannon to kill the wolves, and didn't roll a 6, then strength D did nothing to help because they would have been instant killed by the strength 10.

If a roll of 6 is fine to be instant death for distort, then the only thing you have an issue with is when a roll of 6 kills something immune to instant death. That means eternal warriors and superheavy/gargantuan units. Dropping the 6 result to d3+3 gives them a serious chance at survival without negating the fact that D weapons are supposed to be a nuclear deterrent.

he was using the flamers against them which is Auto Hit so D3 auto Strength D hits is insane against elite units like TWC.

D3+3 is OP as hell unless it is a Super heavy or GC,

D strength should be reserved for super heavies and GC only, and they should never be as undercosted as the Wraith Knight.

Well, I wasn't using flamers I was using regular Wraithcannons. I overwatched the Dreadnaught with 5 models, got one hit and I think he failed his save and I did 3 hull points on the d3 roll. Then my next turn I shot at full BS at his remaining 3 - 4 models and got lucky and scored enough hits with either 6's or his failed saves to wipe out the unit. Flamers would have been better for the extra hits, though.

So everything you did in this game could have been done with the unit just being strength 10. The roll against the dreadnaught was a 3 on a d3, that would have normally been the point where you roll on the vehicle damage table. Meaning if the 3 was either an immobilized result or explodes. No more dreadnaught issue. Then if you rolled a 6 that one model may have made their save, but the other shots still instant deathed the thunderwolves/bikers.

Like I said, strength D means almost nothing to your average unit, it is actually weaker against armor 10 or 11. It only becomes an issue if someone gets lucky and destroys a REALLY big unit with a 6. If that 6 wasn't so devastating it wouldn't be an issue. Hence d3+3 for my fix.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
So everything you did in this game could have been done with the unit just being strength 10. The roll against the dreadnaught was a 3 on a d3, that would have normally been the point where you roll on the vehicle damage table. Meaning if the 3 was either an immobilized result or explodes. No more dreadnaught issue. Then if you rolled a 6 that one model may have made their save, but the other shots still instant deathed the thunderwolves/bikers.

Like I said, strength D means almost nothing to your average unit, it is actually weaker against armor 10 or 11. It only becomes an issue if someone gets lucky and destroys a REALLY big unit with a 6. If that 6 wasn't so devastating it wouldn't be an issue. Hence d3+3 for my fix.

Strength D is handy when shooting against units like Necron Wraiths as that lucky 6 punches their invulnerable saves. However, the Wraithknight's most effective defense against Wraiths is actually just assaulting them and then waiting for stomp. Roll that 6 and remove multiple whole wound models. Doesn't even matter it may have Strength D in shooting or assault.

Even wraiths are instant deathed by strength 10. Just because they have reanimation protocols doesn't mean they have eternal warrior. Fail that reanimate roll and a model goes down. But yes, stomp can eliminate them also, if you're lucky.

eldar distort weapons shouldnt be S10 either.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Even wraiths are instant deathed by strength 10. Just because they have reanimation protocols doesn't mean they have eternal warrior. Fail that reanimate roll and a model goes down. But yes, stomp can eliminate them also, if you're lucky.

Yeah, that is an added benefit of the S 10 vs most units, it's just that the 3++ makes it hard sometimes, they were mostly unaffected by rest of my army's shooting, a wound here or there.

The proposed change is still random, seeing as 1/6 shots with a D weapon won't do anything. Just do away with the random entirely, and assign a single damage profile. If it hits, apply X. No rolling on a chart, no more hoping your opponent rolls low or that you roll high. You and your opponent know exactly what's coming out of that gun and can plan appropriately.

In addition, its also faster to do in game.

There should always be a slight chance of failure for the second die roll in the sequence. The mechanics are based around that possibility.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
eldar distort weapons shouldnt be S10 either.

The flamer variant definitely should not be, but it wasn't in the 6E codex. The single-shot wraithcannons and small blast D-cannons were, and those staying at S10 doesn't seem too unreasonable to me. They get 12" range (24" for the small blast) and are only available on one unit each, not counting Forge World. They're only somewhat deadlier than lascannons (+1 strength and ID on 6; auto-pen on 6 if AV16 were a thing), with much shorter range. I think those being S10 is fair enough. It can be devastating, to be sure, but it's one unit to not come within 12" of. Honestly, the wraithcannon being Strength D isn't totally ludicrous in my opinion, for much the same reason, though I wouldn't cry if it were nerfed back to S10. (Which is what it was in the 4E codex too, IIRC).

Now, there's a good point to be made that precision-dropping them with a Webway Portal is incredibly evil. I used that in one game, won't do it again. Ouch. Maybe make it so that Webway Portals can't deliver Bulky units? (That is, without cracking open the wormcan that is removing Battle Brothers altogether, which might be decent in the Eldar and IoM case but kinda hoses Chaos.)

4th ed book was a die roll, 1-2 nothing, 3-4 wound or glancing hit, 5-6 instant death or penetrating hit. The version before that was 1-4, unit destroyed. 5 or 6 the unit got moved around.

Just Bring back a modified Distort special rule for wraith weapons. I personally was fine with the distort special rule, but I keep hearing how distort was worse than D, but I don't see how since you could use Invuln and cover saves with the 6 result (except flamers are no cover of course).

make the WK's cannon str 10, Ap 1
WG cannon Str 8, Ap 2
Scythes Str 4, Ap 2
Heavy Scythes Str 5, Ap 2

1 nothing
2-5 Wounds/Penetrates as normal
6 Wound causes instant death no armor saves, cover and invnu saves as normal, Penetrate causes a auto penetration result that causes 2 hull points in addition to any other result rolled on the penetration table, Invun and cover saves as normal.



As for strength D you'd have to lose that across all codices where it appears (Imperial Knights for example). Strength 10 multi wound/hull points is probably good. D3 sounds about right to me.

Frozen Ocean wrote:D needs scaling. As it is, the titanic guns of a Warlord Titan are just as strong as those of a Warhound or Shadowsword, or even the chainsaw held by the comparatively minuscule Knights. The only way D currently scales is by number of shots or size of blasts, with a few special rules thrown in to provide minor tweaks. I don't know how this could be achieved, but we need something like a power range; starting with "D1", that might go up to "D5". I'd prefer flat values and rolls instead of all the random tables for the sake of random tables that we currently have.

This is something I've been vaguely working on alongside a system to make Titan-on-Titan combat tactical and engaging.

I like this. For example, when the new Warlord titan came out, I was a bit disappointed by the fact that the Belicosa Volcano Cannon is, in a lot of ways, inferior to the the shoulder-mounted Laser Destroyer for engaging other titans. While the Belicosa is essentially a guaranteed hit (5'' radius + 4" scatter for BS means you need to roll 10 or up to miss the target point) and less likely to produce only a penetrating hit as opposed to multiple automatic wounds, the Laser Blaster will most likely cause *more* damage with at least two destroyer hits.

An important consideration is the weapon that WG wraithcannons are being balanced against: that is, meltaguns. In the same slot (Elites), Eldar have access to Fire Dragons. These guys are all armed with meltaguns and they have Battle Focus. So, the price premium on Wraithguard by comparison is for their Toughness 6 (they both have 3+ armor saves) and whatever way in which their wraithcannon is superior to a meltagun, in exchange for being Bulky and not having Battle Focus.

I think S8 AP2 with ID or 2 HP on a 6 isn't better than S8 AP1 Melta by enough to justify the price premium, even on a T6 platform. S10 arguably is, because it can punch AV14 without having to fish for 6s.

Before the current iteration, the tradeoff for me was this: Wraithguard were slower, but tougher and deadlier against Monstrous Creatures (because of their ID-on-6), while Fire Dragons were cheaper, faster and deadlier against vehicles (because of AP1 and Melta). Now, I think the same trade mostly applies, except that the D-strength wraithcannons always do more damage (unless they fail, which the meltas can do too except against AV10 inside of 6", where they auto-glance at least).

I found the change on the D-scythe more galling: they're massively more destructive to vehicles and MCs both.

What the StrD version of the wraithcannon is nice for, IMHO, is punching out death stars that are hiding behind rerollable 2+ saves, treating 6 on the D chart as a sort of mega-Rending. I like having that option, even if its effect on other targets does make Fire Dragons harder to justify. The D-scythe version, though, feels somewhat excessive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One possible thought is this:

Distort: Rolls of 6 to wound always wound regardless of the target's Toughness and remove 2 wounds from the target. Rolls of 6 to penetrate armor always penetrate regardless of the target's Armor Value, and are resolved at AP1. Feel No Pain may not be taken against wounds of 6 from a weapon with this special rule, and invulnerable and cover saves are made at a -2. FNP, cover and invulnerable saves may be taken normally against any successful to-wound or armor penetration results on rolls other than 6.

The fact that people consider Nerfing Distort back down to Strength 10 a big deal or even a real change is weird.

Few codex's in the entire game have anything as powerful as a Lascannon, but the Eldar have access to a veritable treasure trove of Strength D weapons. That is one of my biggest complaints against the Eldar.

I wouldn't be totally averse to losing every last one of them, but I disagree that the wraithcannon should be reduced to the point that Wraithguard don't justify their 32ppm.

There's also the consideration that D weapons are the counter to death stars with 2+ rerollable cover/invuln saves. It's possible to attack that while leaving D weapons as a Titans-only thing, but that requires a more comprehensive reform.

Lascannons and their equivalents, however, are quite common: every IoM codex except Adepta Sororitas has them, and so do Chaos Space Marines. Dark Eldar have dark lances (which are actually worse than lascannons against AV12 and down and against T7+, better against AV14, and equal except for range against AV13 and T6 and down.) Eldar have brightlances, Necrons have heavy gauss cannons and Tau have heavy rail rifles and railguns. So, it's mostly Orks, Daemons and Tyranids left twisting in the wind on that one. (And Daemons and Tyranids have a few psychic options)

Claiming Eldar shouldn't have Strength D is a reasonable position. I disagree in part (as mentioned above - wouldn't be averse to dropping wraith weapons back to where they were in 6E, but I don't think those were OP), but it's a reasonable case to make. I'm less sure about the claim that lascannon-grade firepower is rare, though. It doesn't seem that way to me.

Ever played apocalypse with the new D weapons ...
It is silly stuff will just not die :(
We need our old D weapons back for the big engines and something between D and S10 for the larger normal codex models (and eldar)

Why don't we just remove the cap on strength and then assign new values to D weapons to show granularity and a steady increase in strength against targets.


For instance IK chainsword would be S12 ap1.

The cannons on the warhound would be S14 ap1.
Etc.

Also change it so that for every number higher than roll needed to penetrate vehicles adds +1 to the damage chart roll, and keep the Destroyer rules ability to ignore FNP