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So like, why are there a total of 20 primarchs if the two twins bring the tally up to 21? Also, can someone explain both of their motivations and what not? looking up lexicanum and 1d4chan have been of little service to me, so I'd appreciate a crash course on the two of em.

Then being twins was a twist in Legion. Before that, it was just assumed Alpharius was their one primarch. They're kind of two sides of the same coin, but they're also smaller than a regular primarch and it's the guess that while ever primarch grew in their own tank, Alpharius and Omegon shared one. Read Legion for more about them, it's a neat book.

What Brother said. They're two creatures but a single "primarch." Just don't think of primarchs as people so much as entities.

The reason there isn't much info about is because there isn't much info about. Not much has been written about them except Legion.

The '20 Primarchs' was from before legion. Technically there's 21 but Omegon isn't common knowledge outside the Alpha Legion, at least not yet. I don't know if they are a single Primarch, like one soul in two bodies, as Wyldhunt suggests, because they have very different ideas about things and the AL are heading to a civil war between the two of them at the moment.

It's the secretive nature of the Legion. Neither of their Primarchs announces his true identity except where needed - in fact the entire Legion calls themselves Alpharius. They give absolutely nothing away, they most certainly wouldn't fly around voxing the advantage of their second Primarch to all and sundry.

The Emperor created the Alpha Legion to fight by confusing and misleading the enemy, fighting a war of secrets and lies. It makes perfect sense the Emperor wouldn't chuck his own secret advantage away.

Yeah there isn't much you can say without ruining Legion for you. the idea is that A and O are 1 Primarch but they can be interchanged with any of their legion because they are all very similar/identical.

I cant remember what book I read it in but there is a bit where the Emperor is walking through he's gene lab (before the warp nicks the Primarchs) and he is just casually noting the number on the sides of the tanks. the books drops little hints as to who is in which tank and what they look like and they say something along the lines of "it looked like there are 2 in the last tank" ill try to find what book that was in. pretty sure its a short story.

 MrBlackledge wrote:
Yeah there isn't much you can say without ruining Legion for you. the idea is that A and O are 1 Primarch but they can be interchanged with any of their legion because they are all very similar/identical.

I cant remember what book I read it in but there is a bit where the Emperor is walking through he's gene lab (before the warp nicks the Primarchs) and he is just casually noting the number on the sides of the tanks. the books drops little hints as to who is in which tank and what they look like and they say something along the lines of "it looked like there are 2 in the last tank" ill try to find what book that was in. pretty sure its a short story.

In First Heretic, Argel Tal thinks he sees two in one tank too.

going off on a bit of tangent here I apologise, but Argel Tal is one of my favourite characters.

Anyway I think it is Magnus looking into the past or something like that. and he sees the emp walking about working on the tanks and stuff. thin it might be prospero burns or a thousand sons

I'm guessing originally there were 20, then they said to themselves "Wait, we have this legion that's a hydra, it could have a twin primarch, a sort of two heads but one soul thing!" so they went with that. As to not have to retcon a bunch of stuff they just said Alpharius Omegon was presented as one entity to most, and the one known as Omegon was kept a secret from pretty much everyone, this is a thing as far as I remember.

 MrBlackledge wrote:
going off on a bit of tangent here I apologise, but Argel Tal is one of my favourite characters.

Anyway I think it is Magnus looking into the past or something like that. and he sees the emp walking about working on the tanks and stuff. thin it might be prospero burns or a thousand sons

One of mine too it's definitely not in PB because I've just read that but it could well be in TS.

hhmmm when I get time ill have a flick through them but its really annoying me now!!!

 MrBlackledge wrote:
going off on a bit of tangent here I apologise, but Argel Tal is one of my favourite characters.

Lots of people agree with you here, most likely because he's one of those rare BL characters with more depth than a puddle.

Too blow your mind even more, as was said they all call themselves Alpharius, they even try to make themselves look all the same as well.

A council of aliens headed by the eldar contacts Alpharius. They convince him that to save all life in the galaxy (read as all xenos) he must kill the Emperor and murder the whole human race. Now I havnt read every HH book, so could some throw a spoiler and let me know how thats developed. Because I always thought that was just awful writing and I really want to like the Alpha Legion.

There were only 20 primarchs, including the twins Alpharius and Omegon. Two died off for unmentioned reasons, and Roboute Gilliman was elevated from an Imperial Army Lord Commander to Primarch status as well as the head of the 13th Legion for his assistance in dealing with those two missing primarchs, which brings the count to the 19 we have at the start of the Heresy. No you know why they never speak of the missing brothers and why Omegon is in hiding, because they know they can be replaced.

SJ

 ImAGeek wrote:
The '20 Primarchs' was from before legion. Technically there's 21 but Omegon isn't common knowledge outside the Alpha Legion, at least not yet. I don't know if they are a single Primarch, like one soul in two bodies, as Wyldhunt suggests, because they have very different ideas about things and the AL are heading to a civil war between the two of them at the moment.

Spoilers:

Wyldhunt wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
The '20 Primarchs' was from before legion. Technically there's 21 but Omegon isn't common knowledge outside the Alpha Legion, at least not yet. I don't know if they are a single Primarch, like one soul in two bodies, as Wyldhunt suggests, because they have very different ideas about things and the AL are heading to a civil war between the two of them at the moment.

Spoilers:

Spoiler:

Well, the aliens in Legion specifically say something like, "We wanted to chat with you because we know you're the primarch who has two bodies for his one soul." Of course, that could partly be xenos bias from their own understanding of what twins are and how they work. In Valedor and Asurman, we see eldar twins referring to how they literally share the same mind/soul and basically are basically the same person until later in life when they finally differentiate somewhat, so it's possible that the xenos in Legion are just projecting this assumption onto Alpharius/Omegon. Still, seems like a pretty major misconception to jump to considering how many intelligent, psychic species were in on that xenos conclave. And twins *do* seem to be a significant thing for multiple species in the 41st millenium. Ahriman is also a twin, and there seems to be a certain amount of significance to that in the Ahriman: Exile and Ahriman: Sorcerer books.

Yeah I would've agreed but as I was posting I thought about the schism that's starting between them and if they were one soul would that happen?

..it's all misdirection.. there are actually 3 ...

It seems there will only be 18 primarchs in game. FW don't intend to make Omegon as alpha legion players would get an advantage. That was yesterday's stance however. Maybe they will change their minds tomorrow...

 JamesY wrote:
It seems there will only be 18 primarchs in game. FW don't intend to make Omegon as alpha legion players would get an advantage. That was yesterday's stance however. Maybe they will change their minds tomorrow...

No FW will release 2 Alpharius models, both in different poses
One if them will be Omegon but he can only be used as Alpharius

commander dante wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
It seems there will only be 18 primarchs in game. FW don't intend to make Omegon as alpha legion players would get an advantage. That was yesterday's stance however. Maybe they will change their minds tomorrow...

No FW will release 2 Alpharius models, both in different poses
One if them will be Omegon but he can only be used as Alpharius

That's still only 18 in game mate.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 MrBlackledge wrote:
Yeah there isn't much you can say without ruining Legion for you. the idea is that A and O are 1 Primarch but they can be interchanged with any of their legion because they are all very similar/identical.

I cant remember what book I read it in but there is a bit where the Emperor is walking through he's gene lab (before the warp nicks the Primarchs) and he is just casually noting the number on the sides of the tanks. the books drops little hints as to who is in which tank and what they look like and they say something along the lines of "it looked like there are 2 in the last tank" ill try to find what book that was in. pretty sure its a short story.

In First Heretic, Argel Tal thinks he sees two in one tank too.

Happens in Deliverance Lost too.

Red Marine wrote:
A council of aliens headed by the eldar contacts Alpharius. They convince him that to save all life in the galaxy (read as all xenos) he must kill the Emperor and murder the whole human race. Now I havnt read every HH book, so could some throw a spoiler and let me know how thats developed. Because I always thought that was just awful writing and I really want to like the Alpha Legion.

Not as I remember it. I am sure it went something like this, don't read if you haven't read the book and don't know what happens.

jeffersonian000 wrote:There were only 20 primarchs, including the twins Alpharius and Omegon. Two died off for unmentioned reasons, and Roboute Gilliman was elevated from an Imperial Army Lord Commander to Primarch status as well as the head of the 13th Legion for his assistance in dealing with those two missing primarchs, which brings the count to the 19 we have at the start of the Heresy. No you know why they never speak of the missing brothers and why Omegon is in hiding, because they know they can be replaced.

SJ

Two died off for unmentioned reasons is false. They are unnamed for what ever reason. You would think Horus would be an unnamed for what he did. What could have the other 2 have done for their names to be stricken from history and all record books.

The real reason for 2 unnamed Primarchs was so people back in the day could make their own chapters and coming from an unnamed Primarch would mean anything can happen since nothing was established, so you can establish your own history and fluff for a complete Legion. Now with todays geeks and nerds it's frowned apon creating a chapter coming from the unnamed Primarchs.

here were only 20 primarchs, including the twins Alpharius and Omegon. Two died off for unmentioned reasons, and Roboute Gilliman was elevated from an Imperial Army Lord Commander to Primarch status as well as the head of the 13th Legion for his assistance in dealing with those two missing primarchs,

Eh what? Where did you get that about RG?

Davor wrote:

Red Marine wrote:
A council of aliens headed by the eldar contacts Alpharius. They convince him that to save all life in the galaxy (read as all xenos) he must kill the Emperor and murder the whole human race. Now I havnt read every HH book, so could some throw a spoiler and let me know how thats developed. Because I always thought that was just awful writing and I really want to like the Alpha Legion.

Not as I remember it. I am sure it went something like this, don't read if you haven't read the book and don't know what happens.

Spoiler:

the elder contacts did not ask Alpharius to kill the Emperor but to save mankind (or was it the universe?) he must stop Horus any way he see fits. So does he kill Horus so the Emperor can live or does he let Horus Kill the Emperor and he basically destroys the entire univers? Another thing, maybe because of this, they have created the "balance" that was needed. People see them working with Chaos but really they are working with the Emperor so Mankind/the univers is not destroyed. What side are they really on?)

 Ratius wrote:

here were only 20 primarchs, including the twins Alpharius and Omegon. Two died off for unmentioned reasons, and Roboute Gilliman was elevated from an Imperial Army Lord Commander to Primarch status as well as the head of the 13th Legion for his assistance in dealing with those two missing primarchs,

Eh what? Where did you get that about RG?

I've been playing this game and reading the fiction since Rogue Trader. In 1st ed, Roboute Guilliman was an Imperial Army Lord Commander rewarded with being turned into a Primarch, with the 10th Chapter of the Space Marine 3rd founding being formed from Roboute's geneseed. The Crimson Fists were a 1st founding Chapter. While we do not know the names of the two missing primarchs, we do know that Roboute was not one of the original 20, while Omegon was. A possible conclusion to this puzzle is that Crimson Fist Primach, Omegon and his Omega Legion, and the Primarch of the Legion that the Ultramarines replaced slew each other during a breif civil war, Roboute and Dorn enforced order on the survivors and with Dorn absorbing the surviving Crimson Fists, Alpharius hiding his twin, and Roboute being enhanced with the Ultramarines being formed to replace the eradicated Legion.

While that is just speculation, it does fit the facts. And it is possible that Janus is Alpharius, while Alpharius is in fact Omegon.

SJ

That's some really cool fluff, but very little of Rogue Trader is considered canon at this point.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Ratius wrote:

here were only 20 primarchs, including the twins Alpharius and Omegon. Two died off for unmentioned reasons, and Roboute Gilliman was elevated from an Imperial Army Lord Commander to Primarch status as well as the head of the 13th Legion for his assistance in dealing with those two missing primarchs,

Eh what? Where did you get that about RG?

I've been playing this game and reading the fiction since Rogue Trader. In 1st ed, Roboute Guilliman was an Imperial Army Lord Commander rewarded with being turned into a Primarch, with the 10th Chapter of the Space Marine 3rd founding being formed from Roboute's geneseed. The Crimson Fists were a 1st founding Chapter. While we do not know the names of the two missing primarchs, we do know that Roboute was not one of the original 20, while Omegon was. A possible conclusion to this puzzle is that Crimson Fist Primach, Omegon and his Omega Legion, and the Primarch of the Legion that the Ultramarines replaced slew each other during a breif civil war, Roboute and Dorn enforced order on the survivors and with Dorn absorbing the surviving Crimson Fists, Alpharius hiding his twin, and Roboute being enhanced with the Ultramarines being formed to replace the eradicated Legion.

While that is just speculation, it does fit the facts. And it is possible that Janus is Alpharius, while Alpharius is in fact Omegon.

SJ

This is the same fluff that included a half-eldar Space Marine librarian, and should likely be taken with several tons of salt at this point.

 ImAGeek wrote:

Davor wrote:

Red Marine wrote:
A council of aliens headed by the eldar contacts Alpharius. They convince him that to save all life in the galaxy (read as all xenos) he must kill the Emperor and murder the whole human race. Now I havnt read every HH book, so could some throw a spoiler and let me know how thats developed. Because I always thought that was just awful writing and I really want to like the Alpha Legion.

Not as I remember it. I am sure it went something like this, don't read if you haven't read the book and don't know what happens.

Spoiler:

the elder contacts did not ask Alpharius to kill the Emperor but to save mankind (or was it the universe?) he must stop Horus any way he see fits. So does he kill Horus so the Emperor can live or does he let Horus Kill the Emperor and he basically destroys the entire univers? Another thing, maybe because of this, they have created the "balance" that was needed. People see them working with Chaos but really they are working with the Emperor so Mankind/the univers is not destroyed. What side are they really on?)

Spoiler:

no, the Cabal wanted the Alpha Legion to save the universe, not mankind, by letting Horus win. If Horus wins, according to the Cabal, Chaos will eventually burn itself out, letting the rest of the universe survive, but mankind will be doomed in the process.

Thank you. Been a while since I read that book. Need to reread it again I think. It was not a bad book.