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Alright guys, here goes:

I'm trying to brainstorm and write a novella (or series of novellas; I haven't decided) about one of the Lost Primarchs and the remnants of their Legion. I am looking for them to be, in one sense or another, loyalists (i.e. not turned to Chaos).

At this point, I have to say this:

I'm not debating the fates of the Primarchs during the Grate Crusade and the Horus Heresy and whether or not Russ killed one of them while the other got absorbed into the Ultramarines. This sort of stuff has been done to death and doesn't need to be covered again.

#EndAnnouncement

What I'm really looking for is the following:

Assuming the Primarch and/or part of his Legion survives:

-- Where would they be hiding out? (My personal thoughts lie with the very fringes of the galaxy, possibly shielded/cut off by the ever popular and cliched Warp Storm)
-- Regression of technology? (i.e. Did they lose their ability to traverse the Warp? Loss of other tech?)
-- How they might re-establish contacted with the Imperium?

All the way to things like what sort of gene-seed traits do you think have not been done time and again? What Gene-seed trains do you think are cool?

I personally like the idea of the "Invisibility" thing for one of the Primarchs that's been hinted at.


Conversely, do you think there are things I definitely should avoid because they clash way to much with canon W40K lore?

For example, my local GW store manager pointed out that a surviving Primarch who could be brought back into the fold of the Imperium would completely change the whole dynamic of the Imperium. They also pointed out the fact that massive crusades have been launched for much less than a living Primarch.

What I'm essentially looking for is peoples thoughts on the issue that I could apply in such a way that it doesn't conflict too much with W40K canon lore.

Let's be honest, no matter what ideas I use, at least one is almost sure going to fly in the face of some lore, and that's before you consider the fact that the premise just invites this to happen.

My personal thoughts I wouldn't mind using:

-- The Primarch is dead.
-- No or limited access to gene-seed.
-- Remnants of the Legion remain on the Fringe of the galaxy.
-- They've lost certain technologies (i.e. lost the use of them and/or are unable to keep manufacturing them. E.g. Land Raiders).
-- They've lost the ability to traverse the Warp but are still capable of inter-planetary travel.
-- Melee-focused Legion with favour towards using Deep Striking troops and Las-weapons.
-- Though still considering themselves a Legion, their numbers have dwindled to below that of one to two chapters.

That's just a few of my ideas. I could write them all down, but I'd probably be here for a while. I just wanted to indicated that I have some ideas of my own, I have made progress on it, and I'm not trying to completely scrooge all the ideas for this off of other people.

Cheers Guys

On the thought of lost technology, on staying on with the idea that one of them was lost, what if as they were traversing the warp with part of their legion to some battle or another when warp [insert plot] things happened and they ended up outside of the galaxy. The massive strain on the minds of their navigators was too much and caused the majority, if not all of them to die. They have spent the last 10,000 years making their way back to us, and fighting with the tendrils of Hive fleets / random other species we have never heard of.

Back in our land, it would be safe for them to believe this to be the primarch who's potential was never seen. His legion folded into the Ultramarines (I know you wanted to avoid this but just spinning ideas) as he was believed lost to the Imperium when his ships never arrived.

At least from my perspective, this would allow for most of what you wanted to incorporate into your stories even if the premise could come across very cheesy if done incorrectly.

 Amanax wrote:
His legion folded into the Ultramarines (I know you wanted to avoid this but just spinning ideas)...

I was more referring to not debating whether or not hat was the case etc etc, but I appreciate the sentiment

As for your overall suggestion, I like the idea. Though it'd be pretty hard to come up with a new race to fight within deep space without ripping off the Tyranids a bit too much (at least I don't think I could create a new deep space race without doing that haha). That being said, it'd be pretty cool having a whole bunch of Space Hulk style battles with Tyranids which could also give rise to a whole bunch of lore relating the the Tyranids being their arch nemesis and all that.

And on your idea of the navigators, i was thinking something along the same lines in terms of them losing all their Psykers and not being able to traverse the Warp because of it.

And I agree: it could be really really cheesy if I did it wrong haha.

Cheers for the input

Are you looking for the series to cover all of their adventures while away from the imperium, or after their return?

If you are doing after their return, you wouldn't need to come up with much more than the most basic explanations for these aliens, and you would stay true to most of the 40k fluff.

If you do it so you tell the story starting with their adventures out in BFE then battles with Tyranids would be simple and wouldn't affect the fluff really at all.

I plan to do more content on they being "found" and their resulting contact with the Imperium, but at the very least I need some history (even just to do as flashbacks if worse comes to worse) so that even if I just do their re-integration (or otherwise) into the Imperium, I can still explain how they got there and why certain things are the way they are.

And assuming I do talk about battles with the Tyranids (and possibly Chaos and other Xenos), I'd only do pivotal battles in their history: the ones that really defined part of who they are or a real turning point, of which I don't think there'll be hugely many.

IllumiNini wrote:

And assuming I do talk about battles with the Tyranids (and possibly Chaos and other Xenos), I'd only do pivotal battles in their history: the ones that really defined part of who they are or a real turning point, of which I don't think there'll be hugely many.

Nah... one of the lost primarchs, being shunned by Big E becomes the Hive Mind itself

1) Went on crusade into Eye.
2) Got stuck.
3) Exist on world trapped in time-loop over X number of weeks/months where all is war.
4) Live or die, doesn't matter, the world resets every X days to start all over again.

 Psienesis wrote:
1) Went on crusade into Eye.
2) Got stuck.
3) Exist on world trapped in time-loop over X number of weeks/months where all is war.
4) Live or die, doesn't matter, the world resets every X days to start all over again.

Do they find the right girl, and fall in "love" to break free of the time loop?

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

Do they find the right girl, and fall in "love" to break free of the time loop?

Did this just get Disney all of a sudden?

IllumiNini wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

Do they find the right girl, and fall in "love" to break free of the time loop?

Did this just get Disney all of a sudden?

Lol, it's basically the plot to Groundhog Day... and I think that new Tom Cruise movie as well

Well it's implied in the fluff that the Primarchs and their Legions were destroyed by the Imperium. Yet in the early Heresy novels, it's also clearly stated that the Astartes are horrified at the unimaginable idea of fighting other Astartes, so you've got some leeway here.

Couple of points: No way is the Emperor going to allow a rogue, renegade or absent Primarch to exist, the Primarchs represent part of the Emperor's grand plan and are an incredibly valuable resource. Each one is a conqueror of sectors of space. He felt that just twenty were sufficient to conquer the entire galaxy, lead millions of Astartes and eventually help govern the Imperium. EDIT: You could argue the entire Great Crusade was about finding the Primarchs, as opposed to uniting humanity which was its ostensible purpose.

It could be that one of the Primarchs chose to flee this responsibility? Or was isolated in some kind of weird sci-fi spatial distortion, or ended up leading his Legion into the future, perhaps turning up in time to defend what's left of the galaxy against the Tyranids?

EDIT: Am I sensing some kind of "missing primarchs" story anthology? It's a fascinating subject and people are coming up with really good ideas.

@NoPoet

I agree, I got plenty of leeway, which I'm relying on very heavily haha.

As far as a rogue or renegade Primarch goes, I totally agree: it would never be allowed. As far as absent goes, it would depend on the circumstances of the absence. For example, if he became absent because of being lost in the Warp, I'm sure the Emperor (and the IoM) wouldn't look down on that; but if he did something horrific and then fled, then they might look down on him. This ties in with your point about the Primarch fleeing his responsibilities; but as I said, it may come down to circumstance.

In terms of the objective of the Great Crusade, I think finding the Primarchs was at least one of the primary (and overall, most important) objectives, but I definitely don't think it was the only one. Not by a long shot.

As far as the time travel idea goes, I had considered that and do intend to use it as a small part of my narrative. In terms of "defending what's left of the galaxy against the Tyranids", that sounds very much like 'End Times', unless you meant to say that they pop out of whatever Warp or spacial anomaly they got caught in only to find them in close proximity to a Hive Fleet (or a number of them).

And I do hope that I get around to doing an anthology of novels or novellas. It would be nice to explore the history, mysteries, and adventures after being reintegrated (or otherwise) into the Imperium. And I agree, it's a very fascinating subject. Tat's part of what motivated me to do this.

I don't mean it was the only reason for the Crusade - but the Heresy novels seem to be gradually painting the Emperor as an obsessive and nepotistic man.

The Imperium is supposedly all about its citizens, but it has always been portrayed that the people are weak, ignorant and doomed without the Emperor and the Astartes. So really, the Imperium as it's portrayed in the 40K novels is all about the Astartes, and in the HH it's all about the Primarchs.

There is conflicting evidence about the Emperor's intentions. Was he trying to make the galaxy safe for human habitation? If so, why? What did he feel was so important about human survival that he (allegedly) challenged the gods? This then leads into irrelevant topics such as "Why does the Emperor deny there are gods if he knows they exist and they actively interfere in the galaxy" and "How come no-one knows about daemons if everyone has had terrifying experiences in the warp or with psykers".

I think the original intention was that the Emperor would be the supreme being, the "greatest man ever" as Inquisitor Draco puts it. I think he was supposed to be a hero. He's gradually had a shadow cast over him in modern literature. His Great Crusade became about finding his sons first, then conquering the galaxy and uniting worlds. He has a plan for all his sons but then fails to realise that Angron's a loony, Kurze is insane, Horus was too prideful and Sanguinius's men are vampires. The Emperor is now portrayed as a tyrant and a butcher. His omniscience is constantly questioned by events.

This is all pretty far off-topic. I'm just grappling with what would happen if a Primarch went missing and wasn't found during the Crusade. You'd possibly need to explain why Macragge's table has blank places without Legion heraldry, why one of the Primarch incubation tanks was dark and its contents presumably dead, why two Primarch statue plinths on Earth are empty, as well as the sense of regret or sadness expressed by one or more Primarchs and the reasons why nobody speaks of it.

The idea of Astartes fighting Astartes being something terrible is retconned later in the Heresy series so you should probably just ignore that. (Unless the missing Primarchs were killed by the Dark Angels when they were the only Legion..?) The World Eaters hold very brutal pit fighting contests; fair enough, that's a blood sport and not a fight to the death, but the Wolves and World Eaters have engaged in open warfare against each other (presumably the other Legions didn't know this though).

There are a few too many contradictions in the fluff, so I guess the tl;dr is you will not be able to satisfy everyone but there is plenty of room to maneuver.

Agreed: I'm bound to run into contradictions somewhere. But the more I can avoid, the better.

As far as the Primarch never being found, I would much rather him go missing and/or flee during the Great Crusade but after he had been found and given command of his Legion. Because then, even if I don't even come up with an actual explanation of what it was, I can still link that in with, as you said, the sense of regret and sadness in relation to as well as why the others won't talk about the missing Primarchs.

As far as Astartes fighting Astartes, the abhorrence of it depends on the situation. But in most situations where Astartes are fighting Astartes, there is usually a good reason (for example, they were traitors) which would eliminate any abhorrence towards the act. Given that, even it was generally considered abhorrent, records of it happening is part of what defines the Horus Heresy (IMO), so I'd assume whatever the horrific reason was for expunging the records, it definitely had to be worse than that.

What I meant is, in Horus Rising and several of the early novels (I believe Fulgrim is one of them) the Astartes characters react variously with horror, revulsion or a perverse thrill at the idea of Astartes fighting Astartes to kill each other. This, to me, establishes a black and white "Astartes have never fought Astartes" status quo.

So with this in mind, I find it hard to believe this may have happened with two Legions being destroyed. Maybe they didn't even have Legions - maybe the Primarchs were stillborn, or the Primarchs were killed by the Emperor or by the other Primarchs.

Maybe by the time the Great Crusade reached their planets, the Primarchs were dead.

To further confuse things, in one of the novels the incubation tank for one of the missing Primarchs was dark, as if its contents were dead.

Whatever you choose to do, don't have him announcing "There's coffee in that nebula".