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Im looking through the CSM codex and I can't decide whether I should take Possessed (MoK w/ icon) or Berserkers.

The correct answer is neither.

If running Crimson Slaughter, possessed.

If running Khorne Daemonkin, Beserkers.

If running vanilla codex, Regular Marines with MoK.

 welshhoppo wrote:
The correct answer is neither.

If running Crimson Slaughter, possessed.

If running Khorne Daemonkin, Beserkers.

If running vanilla codex, Regular Marines with MoK.

/thread.

 welshhoppo wrote:
The correct answer is neither.

If running Crimson Slaughter, possessed.

If running Khorne Daemonkin, Beserkers.

If running vanilla codex, Regular Marines with MoK.

Theres a 1/3 chance MoK possessed win in a combat with MoK CSM outright

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
The correct answer is neither.

If running Crimson Slaughter, possessed.

If running Khorne Daemonkin, Beserkers.

If running vanilla codex, Regular Marines with MoK.

Theres a 1/3 chance MoK possessed win in a combat with MoK CSM outright

Care to elaborate a little bit?

And just because unit A beats unit B one on one doesn't mean unit A is automatically better.

I would say berzerkers

 Ignatius wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
The correct answer is neither.

If running Crimson Slaughter, possessed.

If running Khorne Daemonkin, Beserkers.

If running vanilla codex, Regular Marines with MoK.

Theres a 1/3 chance MoK possessed win in a combat with MoK CSM outright

Care to elaborate a little bit?

And just because unit A beats unit B one on one doesn't mean unit A is automatically better.

I painstakingly did a bunch of math
10 CSM w/ MoK vs 5 Possessed w/ MoK and Icon of wrath (160 points)

CSM charge, Posessed have Supernatural Speed: 3 dead CSM, 2 dead Possessed
Possessed charge, Possessed have Supernatural Speed: 3 dead CSM, 1-2 dead Possessed
CSM charge, Possessed have Strength of the Damned: 2 dead CSM, 3 dead Possessed
Possessed charge, Possessed have Strength of the Damned: 2-3 dead CSM, 2 dead Possessed
CSM charge, Possessed have Vorpal Claws: 5 dead CSM, 3 dead Possessed
Possessed Charge, Possessed have Vorpal Claws: 9 dead CSM, 2 dead Possessed

You forgot to count in shooting. In which case it's 10 csm vs 2-3 possessed.

Also, possessed are not troops in regular csm, thus don't get obsec and an obsec rhino. They're random - you don't know what to expect. They're much less durable point to point, thus, you have a high chance of not reaching combat whatsoever. All in all, they're one of the worst units in the entire game right now. The only thing going for them is fearless.

So, you're comparing one of the worst units in the entire game and below average one - chaos marines.

Zerkers are pretty overcosted too, don't have meltas. But they're at least cheaper than possessed. And they can be troops with an obsec rhino. Even if you run them separately, obsec transports are always handy. Besides, they have nades and can have a powerfist/meltabomb character which makes them able to hurt larger things from time to time.

 Ignatius wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
The correct answer is neither.

If running Crimson Slaughter, possessed.

If running Khorne Daemonkin, Beserkers.

If running vanilla codex, Regular Marines with MoK.

/thread.

What if youre running black legion

Exalbaru wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
The correct answer is neither.

If running Crimson Slaughter, possessed.

If running Khorne Daemonkin, Beserkers.

If running vanilla codex, Regular Marines with MoK.

/thread.

What if youre running black legion

Neither because that supplement is horrible.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
The correct answer is neither.

If running Crimson Slaughter, possessed.

If running Khorne Daemonkin, Beserkers.

If running vanilla codex, Regular Marines with MoK.

Theres a 1/3 chance MoK possessed win in a combat with MoK CSM outright

Care to elaborate a little bit?

And just because unit A beats unit B one on one doesn't mean unit A is automatically better.

I painstakingly did a bunch of math
10 CSM w/ MoK vs 5 Possessed w/ MoK and Icon of wrath (160 points)

CSM charge, Posessed have Supernatural Speed: 3 dead CSM, 2 dead Possessed
Possessed charge, Possessed have Supernatural Speed: 3 dead CSM, 1-2 dead Possessed
CSM charge, Possessed have Strength of the Damned: 2 dead CSM, 3 dead Possessed
Possessed charge, Possessed have Strength of the Damned: 2-3 dead CSM, 2 dead Possessed
CSM charge, Possessed have Vorpal Claws: 5 dead CSM, 3 dead Possessed
Possessed Charge, Possessed have Vorpal Claws: 9 dead CSM, 2 dead Possessed

Except when I run a unit, I want better than 30% odds of them doing their only job.

2/3 times, they fail to win combat against a unit 2/3rds of their price.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Exalbaru wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
The correct answer is neither.

If running Crimson Slaughter, possessed.

If running Khorne Daemonkin, Beserkers.

If running vanilla codex, Regular Marines with MoK.

/thread.

What if youre running black legion

Neither because that supplement is horrible.

I wish that wasn't the case! Especially since I had so much CSM painted as BL before that dex dropped. I prefer zerkers though personally, just for more reliability if it is between the two.

Black Legion isn't that bad! You get some cool relics... and mark of khorne chosen in dreadclaw with no upgrades still packs a punch.

And then the rest of the army pays the VoTLW tax. Which would be okay if it didn't apply to MEQ armies only.

Possessed need to be changed to the Beast unit type, and it would basically fix every problem with them. Fast moving, fearless 3+ models, with a good amount of attacks and the potential to be AP3/I5? That would be awesome sauce. Especially in Khorne Demonkin where you could add a JuggerHerald in with the Hatred locus.

@welshhoppo which makes sense for it to only work vs loyalist marines. The Black Legion supplement isn't as bad as it's made out to be you just can't power game with it

The possesed are not that apealing to me to be honest, I would prefer Khorne bersekers if Im having a land raider to deliver the blow. Otherwise I would stick is something more mediocre in melee point wise, Shooting is the way most of the times nowadays

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
@welshhoppo which makes sense for it to only work vs loyalist marines. The Black Legion supplement isn't as bad as it's made out to be you just can't power game with it

Except that you are paying for an upgrade that does very little against most of the game. If it worked against imperium units it would be better. Except it does nothing against many of the popular armies today. And seeing as the one thing CSM has in abundance is the ability to make things fearless, the leadership bonus is often wasted too.

 welshhoppo wrote:

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
@welshhoppo which makes sense for it to only work vs loyalist marines. The Black Legion supplement isn't as bad as it's made out to be you just can't power game with it

Except that you are paying for an upgrade that does very little against most of the game. If it worked against imperium units it would be better. Except it does nothing against many of the popular armies today. And seeing as the one thing CSM has in abundance is the ability to make things fearless, the leadership bonus is often wasted too.

It is worth noting our best troops either don't need it (Plague and Noise Marines are Fearless, and Cultists are cowards anyway), or we are using mostly vehicles.