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I'm specifically looking at Rites of Battle for an Aspect Host (assuming you choose the +1 BS) and Rights of the Avenger from a Dire Avenger Shrine. Do wave serpents you buy for the formation get the +1 ballistic skill as well?

negasmurf wrote:
I'm specifically looking at Rites of Battle for an Aspect Host (assuming you choose the +1 BS) and Rights of the Avenger from a Dire Avenger Shrine. Do wave serpents you buy for the formation get the +1 ballistic skill as well?

If the formations say "all units of this formation/detachment gain ..." or similar, yes. If it calls out specific units - the ones that take the dedicated transport as an option for example - and only grants those units the rule, the answer is no.

Bit of conflict actually - normally, unless there's a restriction to that effect (such as the Ork Green Tide formation), units in a formation may purchase a Dedicated Transport as normal. Now, the rules on units that don't take up slots (p121) tells us these DT's are part of the formation that they were purchased by, meaning they gain the benefit of the formation's rules.

Now comes the sticking point - the Aspect Host formation has a restriction that each unit must purchase an Exarch. Obviously you can't do this for any purchased Wave Serpents, so there is some argument about whether they're allowed at all.

A pair of previous threads on this topic:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/654739.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/650707.page

Officially; we don't know, and GW will never release another FAQ ever again to let us know. Forge that narrative harder!

General Consensus: Yes.

Camp 1 - "Yes" : They are units that are part of the formation, so they gain it, since it says "all units in this formation".

Camp 2 - "No." : Although they are upgrades for units in the formation, only the units listed in the formation get the benefit.

 Yarium wrote:
Officially; we don't know, and GW will never release another FAQ ever again to let us know. Forge that narrative harder!

General Consensus: Yes.

Camp 1 - "Yes" : They are units that are part of the formation, so they gain it, since it says "all units in this formation".

Camp 2 - "No." : Although they are upgrades for units in the formation, only the units listed in the formation get the benefit.

I don't see how Camp 2 could build a Battleforged army with even a single Dedicated Transport option taken. Either the DT unit belongs to the Formation and benefits from it or it is not part of any formation:

Battleforged wrote:However, all of the units in your army must belong to a Detachment and no unit can belong to more than one Detachment.

And in addition to that, the rules DO cover DTs:

Dedicated Transports wrote:Sometimes a unit’s Army List Entry will include a Transport option, allowing a vehicle to be selected together with the unit. These Dedicated Transports do not use up a slot on the Force Organisation Chart, but for all other rules purposes count as having the same Battlefield Role and Faction (if any) as the unit they were bought for.

So a DT is a unit not using up a slot of the FOC, which leads us to this:

Army List Entries That Do Not Use Force Organisation Slots wrote:If the Army List Entry states that it can be included in an army that includes another specified unit, and that it does not take up a Force Organisation slot, it must join the same Detachment as that specified unit

They not only gain the benefits but they are actually FORCED to join the same Detachment.

Yeah, camp 2 just doesn't make sense to me.

nekooni wrote:They not only gain the benefits but they are actually FORCED to join the same Detachment.

They gain the rules, but not always the benefits. Drop Pods in the Skyhammer Formation have the "First the Fire, Then the Blade" rule, but since they are not Devastator Squads or Assault Squads, they do not benefit. Space Marine Terminators in a Combined Arms Detachment have the Objective Secured rule, but since they do not have the Troops Role, they do not benefit. And so on.

Yarium wrote:Yeah, camp 2 just doesn't make sense to me.

You don't understand that you have to use the obscure unwritten rules that only a precious few have access to and they cannot quote or reference in order to understand the Camp 2 position. Things like "A unit name is not a unit's name, it is the name of the datasheet, and so only refers to the models in the unit."

Charistoph wrote:

nekooni wrote:They not only gain the benefits but they are actually FORCED to join the same Detachment.

They gain the rules, but not always the benefits. Drop Pods in the Skyhammer Formation have the "First the Fire, Then the Blade" rule, but since they are not Devastator Squads or Assault Squads, they do not benefit. Space Marine Terminators in a Combined Arms Detachment have the Objective Secured rule, but since they do not have the Troops Role, they do not benefit. And so on.

Yes, just like the Devastators do not gain the benefits specific to the Assault Marines. I had the illusory thought that I would not have to point out that a Drop Pod is not, in fact, a fething Assault Squad. Excuse me while i go kick a puppy or something.

I argue that the formation special rules do not apply, and this is why:

The Aspect Host is made up of

3 units of Dire Avengers, Howling Banshees, Striking Scorpions, Fire Dragons, Swooping Hawks, Warp Spiders, Shining Spears, or Dark Reapers (in any combination)

The Rites of Battle special rule states:

All units in this Formation add 1 to the chosen characteristic

i.e. WS or BS.

Note that Wave Serpents are not specified as being part of the formation. How do they fit into the Formation in a legal way?

BRB p. 82: "Dedicated Transports" Sometimes a unit entry will include a transport option, allowing a vehicle to be selected together with the unit. These Dedicated Transports do not use up a slot on the force organization chart (pg 120) but count as having the same role as the unit they were bought for all other rules purposes

Note that "battlefield role" is not that same as belonging to a formation or benefiting from a unit's special rules.

Not using a slot on the FOC is defined as:

BRB p. 121: "Army List Entries That Do Not Use Force Organization Slots" Occasionally a unit's Army List Entry will state that a unit does not take up a slot on the Force Organization Chart. These units can be included in any Detachment, even if all the slots of the appropriate Battlefield Role are filled with other units or if the Detachment had not slot for their Battlefield Role, but they must still adhere to any restrictions detailed in the Detachment and its own Army List Entry. If the Army List Entry states that it can be included in an army that includes another specified unit, and that is does not take up a Force Organization Slot, it must join the same Detachment as that specified unit. In either case, these units are part of the Detachment for all rules purposes and will gain any appropriate Command Benefits.

Formations are defined as having the following restrictions:

BRB p. 121: "Formations" Whilst some Formations provide you with all the gaming information you will need to use them in your games, it is not uncommon for them simply to describe a number of special rules that apply when you include several specific units together. Instead of including a Force organization chart, the Army List Entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any special rules that those units gain. Unless stated otherwise, each individual units maintains its normal Battlefield Role when taken as part of a Formation.

Any Wave Serpent taken by a unit in the Aspect Host does not gain any benefit from the Rites of Battle special rule because they are not specified as being part of the formation. Because as Dedicated Transports they do not take up an FOC slot, they are considered to be part of the same detachment as the Aspect Host but maintain their Battlefield Role. Because the Rites of Battle is a special rule and not a Command Benefit, only the units specified as being part of the formation receive its benefits.

@TheNewBlood. You forgot one little thing.

Page 121: "Formations". Very first sentence.

Formations are a special type of Detachment,

As such.

1. Formations are Detachments. (BRB, pg 121 "Formations")
2. Some units in formations can take a Dedicated Transport. (BRB, pg 82 "Dedicated Transports")
3. Dedicated Transports are part of the detachment of their parent unit for all rules purposes. (BRB, pg 121 "Army List Entries That Do Not Use Force Organisation Charts")

Taken all together, if a unit from a formation takes a dedicated transport, said dedicated transport is part of the formation.

 Happyjew wrote:
@TheNewBlood. You forgot one little thing.

Page 121: "Formations". Very first sentence.

Formations are a special type of Detachment,

As such.

1. Formations are Detachments. (BRB, pg 121 "Formations")
2. Some units in formations can take a Dedicated Transport. (BRB, pg 82 "Dedicated Transports")
3. Dedicated Transports are part of the detachment of their parent unit for all rules purposes. (BRB, pg 121 "Army List Entries That Do Not Use Force Organisation Charts")

Taken all together, if a unit from a formation takes a dedicated transport, said dedicated transport is part of the formation.

Yes, Formations are detachments. However, dedicated transports only receive the rules from a detachment or formation if those rules apply to the battlefield role of the unit that purchased the Dedicated Transport (See "Dedicated Transports"). Because the Aspect Host's Rites of Battle does not apply to the battlefield role of the units within the formation, the Wave Serpent does not receive the benefits of Rites of Battle.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Yes, Formations are detachments. However, dedicated transports only receive the rules from a detachment or formation if those rules apply to the battlefield role of the unit that purchased the Dedicated Transport (See "Dedicated Transports").

No. What 'Dedicated Transports' actually says is, "Dedicated Transports... count as having the same role as the unit they were bought for for all other rules purposes."

That is not anything at all like, "Dedicated Transports only receive rules from a detachment if they apply to the role of the unit they were purchased for."

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Yes, Formations are detachments. However, dedicated transports only receive the rules from a detachment or formation if those rules apply to the battlefield role of the unit that purchased the Dedicated Transport (See "Dedicated Transports"). Because the Aspect Host's Rites of Battle does not apply to the battlefield role of the units within the formation, the Wave Serpent does not receive the benefits of Rites of Battle.

You need to review the rules on units that do not take up slots, then.
"Army List Entries That Do Not Use Force Organisation Slots
Occasionally a unit’s Army List Entry will state that the unit it describes does not take up a slot on a Force Organisation Chart. These units can be included in any Detachment, even if all the slots of the appropriate Battlefield Role are filled with other units or if the Detachment had no slot for their Battlefield Role, but they must still adhere to any restrictions detailed on the Detachment and its own Army List Entry. If the Army List Entry states that it can be included in an army that includes another specified unit, and that it does not take up a Force Organisation slot, it must join the same Detachment as that specified unit. In either case, these units are part of the Detachment for all rules purposes and will gain any appropriate Command Benefits.". *emphasis added

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Yes, Formations are detachments. However, dedicated transports only receive the rules from a detachment or formation if those rules apply to the battlefield role of the unit that purchased the Dedicated Transport (See "Dedicated Transports").

No. What 'Dedicated Transports' actually says is, "Dedicated Transports... count as having the same role as the unit they were bought for for all other rules purposes."

That is not anything at all like, "Dedicated Transports only receive rules from a detachment if they apply to the role of the unit they were purchased for."

The Aspect Host's formation description and the Rites of Battle make no reference to a unit's Battlefield Role.

Here's another problem: the Restrictions of the Aspect Host state that all units in the formation must include an Exarch. As the Exarch is a character upgrade for a unit of Aspect Warriors, a Wave Serpent may not take that upgrade. Therefore, if all the restrictions and rules of the formations apply, Wave Serpents may not be taken in an Aspect Host.

After further consideration of the situation, I have revised my position. Because the Aspect Host is a Formation, all Formations are Detachments, and units that are not in an FOC slot are still part of the Purchased unit's detachment, the Rites of Battle special Rule does affect any Wave Serpents which may be purchased as part of an Aspect Host.

Furthermore, the ITC has FAQed the situation to agree with this position

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Yes, Formations are detachments. However, dedicated transports only receive the rules from a detachment or formation if those rules apply to the battlefield role of the unit that purchased the Dedicated Transport (See "Dedicated Transports").

No. What 'Dedicated Transports' actually says is, "Dedicated Transports... count as having the same role as the unit they were bought for for all other rules purposes."

That is not anything at all like, "Dedicated Transports only receive rules from a detachment if they apply to the role of the unit they were purchased for."

The Aspect Host's formation description and the Rites of Battle make no reference to a unit's Battlefield Role.

Dedicated Transports are Units that do not take up a FOC, therefore the rule applies

If the Army List Entry states that it can be included in an army that includes another specified unit, and that it does not take up a Force Organisation slot, it must join the same Detachment as that specified unit

Any Dedicated Transport you purchase is automatically part of the detachment that the unit who purchased said DT belongs to. The Battlefield Role is completely irrelevant to this.

Here's another problem: the Restrictions of the Aspect Host state that all units in the formation must include an Exarch. As the Exarch is a character upgrade for a unit of Aspect Warriors, a Wave Serpent may not take that upgrade. Therefore, if all the restrictions and rules of the formations apply, Wave Serpents may not be taken in an Aspect Host.

After further consideration of the situation, I have revised my position. Because the Aspect Host is a Formation, all Formations are Detachments, and units that are not in an FOC slot are still part of the Purchased unit's detachment, the Rites of Battle special Rule does affect any Wave Serpents which may be purchased as part of an Aspect Host.

Congratulations, you finally reached the point we've been at ages ago, well done. I agree though - since apparently the Formation Special Rules state that ALL units have to have an exarch (I don't know the actual wording, so I'll trust you guys), you can't build a legal Aspect Host with DTs involved.

Furthermore, the ITC has FAQed the situation to agree with this position

And one last thing - I don't care whether or not the the ITC has done this or that or ruled that the sky is green, it has literally NO relevance in a rules discussion. The ITC makes a bunch of house rules, and all you can take from it is "a major tournament houseruled it this way". Some of their rules are CLEARLY not RAW, why do people keep bringing this gak up over and over again and argue that because of it, the RAW must be THIS or THAT (=how the ITC houseruled it) ? Stop it. Just. Stop.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
The Aspect Host's formation description and the Rites of Battle make no reference to a unit's Battlefield Role.

Correct. So why were you obsessing about it?

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Here's another problem: the Restrictions of the Aspect Host state that all units in the formation must include an Exarch. As the Exarch is a character upgrade for a unit of Aspect Warriors, a Wave Serpent may not take that upgrade. Therefore, if all the restrictions and rules of the formations apply, Wave Serpents may not be taken in an Aspect Host.

Being able to take a Dedicated Transport and the Dedicated Transport getting a Detachment's rules are different discussions, though. So, why is anyone bothering to bring it up?

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Furthermore, the ITC has FAQed the situation to agree with this position

And one nearby LGS allows it and another disallows it. Your point? House Rules are not proof.

I don't understand why we are talking about DT's as if they are a separate unit. They are a squad upgrade like a special/heavy weapon. They are in all aspects a member of the squad, except that they get to move/act independently of the squad when the squad is disembarked. Similar to Combat-Squading space marines.

That covers FOC slots, Formation/Detachment organization, and Battlefield role. It is a member of the squad just like John, Paul, George, Ringo and Rhino.

For the Rites of Battle: Does the rule state "All units in the formation" or all "aspect warriors"? If "all units", then the DT gets the bump. If "all aspect warriors", then no.

And the DT does not need its own exarch. There is an exarch in the squad already. The DT follows the orders of the exarch/sgt of the squad to which it is assigned

WaughGoff wrote:
I don't understand why we are talking about DT's as if they are a separate unit.

Possibly because we're told they are a separate unit.

They are a squad upgrade like a special/heavy weapon. They are in all aspects a member of the squad, except that they get to move/act independently of the squad when the squad is disembarked. Similar to Combat-Squading space marines.

If you believe they are part of the same unit, where are the rules that tell us that despite being part of the unit they are allowed to move and act independent from their unit?

WaughGoff wrote:
For the Rites of Battle: Does the rule state "All units in the formation" or all "aspect warriors"? If "all units", then the DT gets the bump. If "all aspect warriors", then no.

Neither. It applies to all models from the Formation. See above for why there is a discussion.

WaughGoff,
Within the Datasheet Explained section of every codex will be a paragraph specifically stating that Dedicated Transports are separate to the Unit purchasing them.

So does that mean there is a third Camp - You can't take a wave serpent as part of a aspect host because you can't follow the restriction to purchase an exarch?

 hiveof_chimera wrote:
So does that mean there is a third Camp - You can't take a wave serpent as part of a aspect host because you can't follow the restriction to purchase an exarch?

Yes. I mentioned it when I posted the link to previous threads back at the start of this thread.

Personally, I think that was a snafu by the rules writer that added the Exarch restriction, and so far (in the few games I've used an Aspect Host) I haven't come up against anyone who had a problem with me using WS's after explaining the formation to them, but that's obviously only a small sample.

 Quanar wrote:

 hiveof_chimera wrote:
So does that mean there is a third Camp - You can't take a wave serpent as part of a aspect host because you can't follow the restriction to purchase an exarch?

Yes. I mentioned it when I posted the link to previous threads back at the start of this thread.

Personally, I think that was a snafu by the rules writer that added the Exarch restriction, and so far (in the few games I've used an Aspect Host) I haven't come up against anyone who had a problem with me using WS's after explaining the formation to them, but that's obviously only a small sample.

As a non-Eldar player I'd let you play it unless the fluff for that Formation is like "these guys walk everywhere, they never use transports" which I assume it isn't.

RAW you cannot take DT in an aspect host because of the exarch ruling.

RAI- no idea, GW has some "ideas" behind certain units and what not, maybe they intended for these guys to not take transports, but considering they do not have a Restriction for the formation - No DT- I don't think that is the case here.

HIWPI- I think it's reasonable to assume they meant the exarch ruling to apply only to the various eldar aspect warriors and not the DTs.

By the RAW they are part of the same formation, and would benefit from the stat increase- except WS as they have no WS stat (and not having a stat is not the same as having WS 0 go to +1)

blaktoof wrote:

By the RAW they are part of the same formation, and would benefit from the stat increase- except WS as they have no WS stat (and not having a stat is not the same as having WS 0 go to +1)

While I wouldn't apply it, as it is clear rules lawyering, couldn't you argue that when a Vehicle is in CC, it has a WS of 1, which could then be boosted to 2 by the formation?

Going to no stat to a stat that is set as 1, if someone tried to claim the +1 as, they would still end up with a WS of 1 due to the multiple modifiers rule. They don't have a WS profile of 1, as it's not in their unit profile. So it's a set WS.

blaktoof wrote:
Going to no stat to a stat that is set as 1, if someone tried to claim the +1 as, they would still end up with a WS of 1 due to the multiple modifiers rule. They don't have a WS profile of 1, as it's not in their unit profile. So it's a set WS.

Drat, now grots don't hit my serpents on 4's anymore

I believe the answer is no. If it is listed in the units that make up the formation then yes they would. I believe the formation in question just list off squads and does not make mention of their transports.

There are two ways to look at it.

1. There are no restrictions in place regarding DTs. As such units can take them, and since they are part of the Formation, they benefit.

2. Each unit has to take an Exarch. Serpents cannot take an Exarch and therefore cannot be taken.

End result, discuss with your group.

It is a permitted option of a unit in the formation, so yes it does benefit from the formation rules where applicable.