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These are photos of the PVC one from Fairytale Sacred 40, the other from Yashima and their resin counterparts which are being done as part of the Fantasy Resin Custom Miniatures Collection Kickstarter.



I want to like the game and back but I have some concerns. They have started to build one Kickstarter on the backs of others. Now that is completely speculation, there is a lot of 'partnerships' with other game designers so it could just be a bunch of independents coming together. My concern is they are adopting a CMoN type where as one KS project is almost delivered, another one launches. That in itself wouldn't be too bad but they still haven't fully completed delivery of one of them, now I could be wrong but most of them are in Wave 1 shipping and some haven't shipped yet.

Ninja Dice Kage Masters
- Kickstarter Ended: 03/26/2015
- Estimated Delivery: Nov 2015
- Status: Not delivered, still in production just finished final ok on October 25, 2015 update.

Zpocalypse 2: Defend the Burbs
- Kickstarter Ended: 08/13/2015
- Estimated Delivery: Jun 2016
- Status: Unknown

Fantasy Resin Custom Miniatures Collection
- Kickstarter Ended: 05/28/2015
- Estimated Delivery: Oct 2015
- Status: Production run almost completed, final samples shown of production resin miniatures on last update.

Now we add Folklore: The Affliction which ends soon and a lot of outstanding projects. I'm usually ok providing there is a history of actual completed delivery with overlapping Kickstarters. My limit tends to be 1-2 overlapping Kickstarters and usually they are in the final process of shipping, containers on a boat, waiting to clear customs but there are way too many ongoing Kickstarters for me to back this.

I'm also not a fan of having multiple companies or accounts spreading out the Kickstarters. I don't even know the status but I'm assuming they are completed but there was a Zpocalypse, Ninja Dice, Zpocalypse Aftermath, Heavy Steam and Yashima under a different Greenbrier Games account.

There is also the Kickstarters under Alexander Lim and Artistic Justice Games for Dragon Tides, Fairytale Games and Fairytale Battle Royale. If I recall Wave 1 completed for those except for Dragon Tides as well.

 MLaw wrote:
The main account that I see is Jeff Gracia: Greenbrier Games. That one funded Yashima, Zpocalypse, Heavy Steam, Ninja Dice, Zpocalypse Aftermath, Zpocalypse Survival.

I can see why they would stop using that account. Greenbrier Games is a company. Having their products on a Kickstarter account that has a specific person's name in the title makes no sense. If he leaves the company then what? Plus it just looks more professional. Unfortunately, to my knowledge, Kickstarter doesn't allow people to edit the name as a creator, meaning they have to create a new account if they want to alter it (in this case a good call IMO).

It "sounds" kinda like you're trying to make a business decision that makes good business sense sound like something sinister and I'm not sure why. These guys have a track record that I'm comfortable doing business with.

I'm not saying the business is something sinister. I'm saying that they are spreading themselves thinly as seen by having to add more Kickstarters for funding before completing others. Now granted that is my opinion but it is something to be wary about and I'm talking as a backer, not of Folklore but of their other projects. As a backer communication usually comes in once another project has started and then it fades away. Granted there isn't a lot to report but these are flags to be wary and consider. I'm not in with just a $1 at least with Folklore, I'm in for over $600 on outstanding projects when you combine my backing on their projects that have yet to be delivered and these aren't dice projects... these are all miniature game projects.

Projects I've backed so far from them:
Fairytale Games: The Battle Royale - Wave 1 only delivered, sacred 40 miniatures, rest not completed and still in doing proofs and part production. 1 year, 8 months late.
Fairytale Games: The Miniatures Campaign - Not delivered or fulfilled yet. Slightly over a 1 year late.
Yashima - Wave 1 only delivered, rest not completed and still in production. 3 months late.
Dragon Tides - Not delivered or fulfilled yet. 1 month late, just went into production.

There are 4 miniatures games that are still also going on (including Folklore), not counting the projects that are still late. It is one thing to have 1-2 Kickstarters overlapping like CMoN and Mantic have done but it is starting to get more and more. I haven't been happy with the communication which lulls unless a new project is starting and then they spam all the projects, but then selectively respond to comments. It isn't sinister but it also isn't a healthy sign and it is for those red flags that I chose not to back. Again I'm not saying that it is something sneaky, but there is a marketing behind the decisions for business reasons that borders 'used car salesman' technique. Since I'm already in for hundreds, I'm not risking more until they start fully delivering.

Again to be clear I posted the image to show the quality of the miniatures, which isn't too bad. Although the sacred 40 aren't as good as I would have liked. However they have improved the techniques with their partnerships with each other as I've seen in Yashima and some of the Dragon Tides production versions. Anyone is welcome to back them, I'm just providing information as a long time backer of their projects and reasons why I didn't back. It is the same reasons I didn't back the resin fantasy project, even though I really wanted too because the resin versions look good. However I'm already invested more than I'm willing to risk at the moment.

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Just remember that Dragon Tides and the Fairy Tail games are from a TOTALLY SEPARATE COMPANY.

That's Artistic Justice, run by Alex Lim. He came to Greenbrier to get the figures done for his game, since Greenbrier had been having success getting all their Zpocalypse stuff sculpted in 3D.

Greenbrier helped them out, but that's still a whole other company's issue.

That wasn't what was explained or implied in the interviews and discussions I had with them at GenCon. Yes Artistic Justice originally was a separate company, but it was explained that they have partnered/combined (both was said at GenCon) with Greenbrier Games. Maybe I misunderstood but it was my understanding that Greenbrier is a publishing/developer essentially working with other small or independents, putting them in charge of all the manufacturing and not simply just creating miniatures. It wasn't explained like it was a Prodos is just making miniatures and sculpting like they do with other Kickstarters and there is no other involvement.

If you go to Greenbrier Games press page it lists them as their own 'projects'. It also lists Martial Arts card game (that has no miniatures), Fairytale, Fairytale Miniatures and Dragontides. It lists Greenbrier Games as the Developer and Publisher.

I don't think it is nefarious. I do believe there is a tightly woven partnership which is why they don't list the games as "Products", they are listed as "Projects". When they refer to "Partners" they are talking about other game designers, developers they are working with and essentially becoming the publishing house for them. If all they were doing was manufacturing miniatures, shipping them to another company and having them deal with things that may be one thing... but it is not implied when talking with them or on their press sheets. Artistic Justice is basically a 'Project Manager' for a game they picked up. Each person that Partners with them essentially becomes a Project Manager. From a business standpoint it can work and makes sense. However there are some logistical issues which all reflect on the parent, in this case it is Greenbrier Games who claims to be the parent. When issues start happening it is suddenly, they are separate entities. And again in a way that makes sense, but there is still too many things in the pipeline for my own comfort.

What I don't understand is how much and what exactly Greenbrier is doing. Are they only doing the 3d sculpting and 3d master prints, because both Greenbrier and Artistic Justice send their stuff to China to be manufactured, as both of them are companies in the US. The resin I believe they are doing in-house though but I could be wrong, I didn't follow that one too closely. That leaves Greenbrier in charge of manufacturing (since they are using the same manufacturing company), packaging, publishing and fulfillment as explained in Artistic other Kickstarter updates. Everything at this point is resting on Greenbrier and that is a lot.

 MLaw wrote:
DS, you might have led with that. Are you saying that you're expecting $600 of stuff from GBG and it's overdue and in non-delivery? I didn't get that from your first post. Could you elaborate a little? Those kinds of statements and numbers at face value without other data are concerning but with a little more info it could help others understand the specifics about those concerns and whether or not to throw money and how much.
At face value, I'm in for this and if they can deliver, I'm sold.

I'd like to be able to ask direct questions though to get answers in this KS comments. Either way, please don't feel like I'm doubting you. I'm definitely not and want to know what's up with your situation.

Originally I was going to list links to all the Kickstarter campaigns. Halfway through I decided no because people should be able to do their own research and come to their own conclusions. I never base my decisions solely because I read it on the internet, I verify and do independent research.

I guess it is a matter of how much you consider Artistic Justice a separate company now and how much time is being spent on work for the other projects. Because they are technically separate I can understand not considering them part of Greenbrier. I don't think they are being sinister. I do believe they are stretching themselves thinly and that can cause other issues. It is the same reasons I didn't back other Kickstarters like Battlesystems 2nd KS (jumped on as late pledge after receiving 1st KS) and Lobotomy from Titan Forge, I had too much money on existing KS that haven't completed to warrant adding. With CMoN at least I've never had to worry about one project impacting another one of their projects, at least publicly visibly. Smaller companies however still haven't proven themselves fully. If they complete and succeed then I'd have a bit more faith in Greenbrier but they aren't quite there yet.

Fairytale Games ($155): Battle Royale: Kickstarter ended Jul 3, 2013 with estimated delivery date of Feb 2014. I don't hold Greenbrier responsible for them being late because at the time they weren't really involved together. They only delivered base set. They are still working on Horror, Steampunk edition and still no artbook. Sept 24 which was the last update:

Currently, our friends at Greenbrier Games have taken over the fulfillment side of the Battle Royale Campaign, Minis Campaign, and Dragon Tides Campaign. They are offering us their experience to help us get product to you quicker and more organized, starting with Australia's Sacred40 fulfillment set for next week.

Fairtale Games: Miniatures Campaign ($240): Kickstarter ended October 22, 2013 with an estimated delivery date of Sept 2014. Only received sacred 40 miniatures. I probably should not have but I did go all in because Fairy Tales, wife was going to play and miniatures. Last update was Sept 24, 2015 when they posted about Fulfillment Changes, don't be surprised if you are emailed by someone at Greenbrier Games:

Currently, our friends at Greenbrier Games have taken over the fulfillment side of the Battle Royale Campaign, Minis Campaign, and Dragon Tides Campaign. They are offering us their experience to help us get product to you quicker and more organized, starting with Australia's Sacred40 fulfillment set for next week.

Dragon Tides ($220): Kickstarter ended Nov 12, 2014 with an estimated delivery date of Sept 2015. At the time I didn't really know the relationship with Greenbriar Games because they were originaly introduced as someone designing miniatures just like Japanime Games, Soda Pop and Marrow. I didn't think anything about also being a backer of Yashima at the same time. I did debate backing because I was already in so much with Fairytale and I decided to gamble because Bruce Lee. Nothing has been delivered by Sept 14 they posted that the last of the mini's have been sent to the printers.

Now just to solely Greenbrier Games Kickstarters.

Yashima ($220): Kickstarter ended October 14, 2014 with an estimated delivery date of July 2015. Only shipped Wave 1, which was the Core box with 4 miniatures. THey are still working on the expansions, which isn't abnormal for KS like this anymore, even Conan has to do the same thing. On October 25th they aproved the final proofs. It will take 45 days to be manufactured, then another 45 days for freight and shipping. It is a good 90 days before being completed. Feel free to browse their own comment section. If you notice there are delays before updates, they do respond in comments every once and awhile. Communication tends to revovle around "We're working on this" by the way here is a shipping update. For official updates June 29 was unboxing and they closed the pledge manager the next day. July 16th was next update, by the way we're starting Zpocalypse 2 Kickstarter. Then August 25 shipping questions, oh by the way a reminder about Dragon Tides. October 25 final proofs, oh we are also starting Folklore Kickstarter.

Fantasy Resin Collection: Kickstarter ended May 28, 2015 with estimated delivery date of October 2015. I really wanted to back this one because some of the resin miniatures look really good. This is where red flags started to build up for me. They teamed up with Artistic Justice Games who I was already in for more. Then they started talking about their new partner Twin Fire Productions whose flagship game was, Folklore. The link to "http://folkloretheaffliction.com/" which they listed as the URL to Twin Fire Productions now redirects to Folklores Kickstarter page. This is where I started to see Greenbrier becoming more of a publisher for other games and specifically Kickstarter games. I didn't back because I'm still waiting for lots of things, so decided to wait until retail. I also wanted to see if the pattern would change. These the last 4 listed updates for them:

July 15: Pledge Manager coming, by the way we've started another Kickstarter Zpocalypse 2.

Aug 26 3d printed masters are here. If they were waiting for their 3d printed masters from someone else, what is Greenbrier in what capacity doing for the other miniatures campaigns, just 3d sculpting? Folklore coming soon.

October 6: Final samples are here. By the way Folklore, soon.

October 25, final assembled production miniatures but still waiting for manufacture to complete and we've started another KS Folklore.

Zpocalypse 2: Defend the Burbs: Kickstarter ended Aug 13, 2015 with estimated delivery date of Jun 2016. We start with roughly updates once a month. September 15th Pledge manager is live, by the way we're starting Folklore Kickstarter soon. October 25th here are pictures of the new Zombie Sculpts, by the way Folklore Kickstarter is started.

This is from Update #12 that was on August 4:

What’s happening with the campaign?

It’s true that we’ve lost some momentum because we were away. You know we love all of your feedback and commitment, but it’s also hard to have a campaign where you are so involved and then have to go away in the middle of it. We’ve never done a Kickstarter during Gen Con for that reason. However, we decided to accept that evil fact because we knew that with all of our other great games in the pipeline there would be no time this year to do a Kickstarter for Zpocalypse. We are working on Folklore next and that is also a big campaign. At this point, we would like to talk about the difference between designing and game and working on a Kickstarter. We try to spend the majority of our time on the designing part. We do not want to neglect you, our community, but we also work on the game’s aspect all the time and then there are our day jobs too. We would like to thank our backers who have stood by us and know that we are still working on Zpocalypse 2 and are planning on making it the best game it can be. To that end…

Although understandable I wasn't happy with, "Sorry GenCon was busy, we have a lot in the pipeline and we knew we'd neglect this a bit.. by the way Folklore is coming soon". They didn't even finish this, working on next one and already admitting there is a lot in the pipeline. I was hoping they would do Folklore next year, give the KS some time to settle and hit the manufacturing stage. At that point it is more understandable to to start a new project or finalize one because you have nothing to do while you wait for manufacturing, but they are still sculpting for this... and now Folklore?

Just going through the comments of Resin Fantasy and Zpocalypse people are asking for updates, asking if anyone backing Folklore would comment on their page for updates since they have died out. I will say this they don't make updates unless they have something new to announce. That is really up to personal opinion on how much you like to be involved with a Kickstarter. I do understand it but at the same time it makes it seem like they only communicate when a new "Kickstarter project" is on the horizon. It makes it feel like they haven't completed or communicated, by the way we have this new Kickstarter and here is your update... like it is thrown in as a second thought. However that is an opinion and I admit a little biased currently.

I will say they are making business decisions to make business decisions, nothing wrong with that. They are however at this time, directly responsible for more than just their own Kickstarters and not just in the sculpting department but directly involved as part of fulfillment. The expansion is a lot and fairly fast compared to other companies.

Going off of previous history it will be ignored and not addressed. They will let backers do the white knighting as they are already doing, without even reading it (because wall of text) apparently I'm a russian backer. LOL!

Like I said I don't think it is anything they are doing to be sinister. It is on the border of used car salesman (in the US, not sure how that translates to other countries now that I think about it) technique. This is the crucial point for them as they've expanded faster than a traditional company. They are a Kickstarter company and that is what they've built their backbone on which isn't too bad. They usually only post when they have some real news or a new KS is coming. I actually do think they will deliver. For most doing if this is their only Kickstarter with them, which can be seen by how large it did, I can see how others might think that I'm disgruntled. This is their largest Kickstarter to date as well. At the moment I just have more invested into them than I'm willing to lose and not going to invest more until delivery of outstanding projects. Even with CMoN I've backed 4 of their projects and I probably won't back another until fulfillment of these. CMoN though has a track record that Greenbrier hasn't quite gotten yet. I believe they can get there though.

Update: I will say the response was a surprise. Although my concern wasn't that Artistic Justice Games was involved with Folklore, it was that they are handling AJG manufacturer, sculpting and fulfillment along with their own outstanding projects. Backers can determine how much they want to risk. I would consider them a yellow flagged project for a new backer, for me they are red (no backing) because of current investment.

 MLaw wrote:
It's just funny to me, because I was somewhat promoting the KS here.. you could say their poster child on Dakka.. but I ask a simple questions and suddenly out comes the war paint. I'll shoot them an e-mail but that's about all the energy I've got left. I'm mentally and emotionally drained and really don't have it in me to get into arguments over boardgames and plastic dudesmen right now.

Honestly I wouldn't worry about it. I'm not trying to start a "OMG run to the hills" type of thing. There isn't anything to argue or discuss with them because it is at a sit and wait stage. The other items are in production and manufacturing stages. No complaining or concerns can speed that up. It is more of a there are a lot of projects in the hopper, why are we rushed to the next one.

KS comments can be toxic, even when you ask a simple question. It was why I didn't simply back to bring up concerns because as seen with the whole Prodos/AVP/Panzerfauste everyone is defending of their babies. I was just trying to provide some background for people to come to their own decisions on what they determine for risk vs rewards. Dakka despite some heavy debates, tends to be more intelligent than the normal "Ooohhh shiny KS" crowd. Most of us have experience and also been part of the ones that have had issues. If someone isn't invested and this is the only Kickstarter the risk vs rewards is decent for them. Each person has make that judgement themselves.

Kickstarter comments is usually a toxic environment whenever concerns are brought up. It is unfortunate that it developed the way it did and I do feel bad for MLaw. That is one of the reasons I didn't simply back to bring them up because I know people would backlash.

 Shawn (GBG) wrote:
After the fact AJG approached GBG to help manufacture and distribute their titles due to our experience and success...

So we can only produce and ship what is completed and handed off to us by AJG. I'm more than happy to address any questions you have directly. Just give me a little time as we are finishing up a Kickstarter and I am also at work (my normal non-GBG day job)

Thank you for stopping by Shawn. The concerns I had were around the manufacturing of the miniatures, not just AJG games. I am speaking as a Yashima backer, combined with backing AJG so there is a lot that has already been invested into the mix. I understand you say that you are handling the miniatures, that is what I consider important considering I know how much work and time goes into that aspect alone. The other projects still in the mix for GBG are also miniatures games as well.

I understand the business need to have other games in Kickstarter. Idealy a game should be in Kickstarter while another is being fulfilled, in a perfect world. So that is something I do understand. I was just explaining the reasons behind not backing Folklore at the moment because I'm still waiting for Yashima. Had I backed Resin Fantasy and/or Zpocalypse2 I would also be still waiting for those. As someone who is a frequent Kickstarter backer, I made a rule that I try to keep (broken it once) of not continually backing until fulfillment is completed with a proven track record. I do understand from your point of view ZApocalypse and Ninja Dice are completed, but that isn't quite at the representation of successful history. As such that is why I wasn't and haven't backed new GBG currently. There was a big expansion and a lot of games in the hopper.

Another concern is the normal non-GBG day job. Again as someone who is a small business, this is something I can understand. This goes with having a lot of projects in the mix. Most of the updates do suggest emailing, however if you go through the comments section of Zpocalypse and Fantasy Resin there are some concerns. I understand simply asking people to email, but backers like to have interaction and really need someone interacting on a continual basis. That is a sign that things are stretching thin. It isn't necessarily a bad thing though, being successful with those will help cement future expectations and some of that gets swept under.

I really do wish Greenbrier Games the best and hope they succeed. Once they finish the existing Kickstarters, then I will most likely back future projects, once the track record is more proven.

If you can pledge a $1 to get into the PM, then from the PM you can upgrade and still get applicable stretch goals then that isn't that bad. That would probably be a safer route as well, letting you get in but not fully go in, until the other Kickstarters have finished fulfillment as well. If they are on schedule, they should all be delivered in another 2 months if I recall (might have to double check that). I would assume the PM wouldn't open up until later and it would be open for awhile, at least that would be in their best interest. I might be tempted to do that, but I suck at self control once I finally cave in. ^_^ So I have to stick to my guns and wait to back further projects until the rest have completed and there is a more definite proven track record though. I only hope that the community isn't so defensive in the future though as that can end up being harmful to the growth.

 Theophony wrote:
I kind of laugh about the stance you take when i think of Mantic and how many KS they have had going at one time. They do eventually ship, through multiple waves, and multiple tries . I did pass on the fairy tales and the bruce lee game as well because i didn't know the company and they had outstanding KS.

It really depends on how much a person has already invested in outstanding Kicktarters. Everyone has the limit that they are comfortable losing. You should never back more than you are comfortable losing. One or two Kickstarters isn't too bad, when you start adding more then it becomes more of a risk (all eggs in one basket sort of thing).

The difference though when looking at Mantic/CMoN, is they have a history of delivering which is longer than GBG. Sometimes they are late but they have the consistency record to go with, CMoN more than Mantic though, so I'm more comfortable backing more with CMoN. I however didn't back a couple of Mantic's previous KS because I was still waiting on previous fulfillment from one that I did back. With another I jumped on the pledge manager with someone else once they delivered. Now unfortunately with Creature Caster and Arcane Factories... I'm not sure if they will deliver and I'm out money from them. They were a partnership, that fell out, which is also a risk when multiple people are involved. In the case of Mantic/CMoN, I don't have to worry about fallout between two partners.