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Captains in the fluff are portrayed as strategic genius's yet on the table you can't really use them as any more than a big stick.

Characters like Cato Sicarius and Kor'sarro Khan have plenty of buffs which represent the tactical skill but the bog standard captain has none of this.

Should captains have an ability or be able to buy a piece of wargear to maybe let them re-roll initiative or reserves or something similar to an Autarch? or like cato give a tac squad an upgrade like outflank or scout or tank or monster hunter?

What do you think?

You can make them a Warlord and give them a Strategic Warlord trait. Those are great for giving them a commander flavour. There's also cheaping out on equipment and investing the points into more boyz.

Taffy17 wrote:
Should captains have an ability or be able to buy a piece of wargear to maybe let them re-roll initiative or reserves or something similar to an Autarch? or like cato give a tac squad an upgrade like outflank or scout or tank or monster hunter?

The Imperial Guard orders mechanic is a good example of how to make something like this work. I would definitely prefer Captains being more of a strategic asset, and let Chaplains be the beatstick character. As it currently stands, there's not a lot of reason to use a Captain as anything other than a beatstick.

Run named character then. Most of them can buff their detachment significantly.

Have him lead a Gladius Strike Force and gain one use per game of each of the Combat Doctrines.

These are all great if there's a named character who's similar to the type of captain you want.

Unfortunately I play Blood Angels and don't want a Jump Pack Captain like Dante or a Terminator captain like Karlaen.

Likewise what if a Dark Angels player doesn't want a Jetbike or Terminator captain?

I think there should be further perks for a captain to show his tactical genius

It'd be good if we could take some sort of upgrade to represent the various Masters we can get models for, such as Master of the Fleet, Master of Scouts and Master of the Armoury etc.

For example:

A Chapter Master may take one of the following upgrades. Only one of each upgrade may be taken per army.

- Master of the Fleet: May add +1 to Reserve rolls and the Orbital Strike becomes more accurate.

- Master of the Armoury: May take a single weapon from the Heavy Weapons list. Models in the same unit may re-roll 1's to hit.

- Master of the Watch: The Master and his unit gain the Interceptor rule.

Just a couple of ideas but I think they'd be pretty good at adding some diversity into what is solely a beat-stick character.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Run named character then. Most of them can buff their detachment significantly.

Not all armies have named characters, and not all named characters are good. Take Iron Hands for instance. Unless you count that piece of garbage Vaylund Cal, IH don't have a named character. In fact we don't have anything that is uniquely IH (anymore).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Valkyrie wrote:
It'd be good if we could take some sort of upgrade to represent the various Masters we can get models for, such as Master of the Fleet, Master of Scouts and Master of the Armoury etc.

For example:

A Chapter Master may take one of the following upgrades. Only one of each upgrade may be taken per army.

- Master of the Fleet: May add +1 to Reserve rolls and the Orbital Strike becomes more accurate.

- Master of the Armoury: May take a single weapon from the Heavy Weapons list. Models in the same unit may re-roll 1's to hit.

- Master of the Watch: The Master and his unit gain the Interceptor rule.

Just a couple of ideas but I think they'd be pretty good at adding some diversity into what is solely a beat-stick character.

This is actually a decent idea. Maybe even a few upgrade options for specific armies that fit with those armies' flavors. Nothing OP or otherwise over the top though.

 Valkyrie wrote:
It'd be good if we could take some sort of upgrade to represent the various Masters we can get models for, such as Master of the Fleet, Master of Scouts and Master of the Armoury etc.

For example:

A Chapter Master may take one of the following upgrades. Only one of each upgrade may be taken per army.

- Master of the Fleet: May add +1 to Reserve rolls and the Orbital Strike becomes more accurate.

- Master of the Armoury: May take a single weapon from the Heavy Weapons list. Models in the same unit may re-roll 1's to hit.

- Master of the Watch: The Master and his unit gain the Interceptor rule.

Just a couple of ideas but I think they'd be pretty good at adding some diversity into what is solely a beat-stick character.

Those sound more like Warlord traits... any Captain can already become the Warlord and get his tactical advantage there. If we start giving them these types of abilities, we may as well just generate a huge list of Warlord traits and get rid of the random roll part of it. If the object is to let multiple Captains have a Warlord trait... then just do that and watch the cheesy synergy it creates in list building.

Those sound more like Warlord traits... any Captain can already become the Warlord and get his tactical advantage there. If we start giving them these types of abilities, we may as well just generate a huge list of Warlord traits and get rid of the random roll part of it. If the object is to let multiple Captains have a Warlord trait... then just do that and watch the cheesy synergy it creates in list building.

A lot of the unique traits ARE basically warlord traits. They are just in addition to the warlord traits the character gets for being warlord...

As for a list of warlord traits and getting to pick a warlord trait (for an appropriate points cost), I am all for it. I feel we have enough randomness everywhere else in this game that we don't need it in the warlord traits. It is quite silly and makes no sense for the warlord traits to be random in all honesty.

I am also fine having unique warlord traits for each army as well with some general ones overlapping.

Or maybe just have the option to buy the warlord trait you want.

 NorseSig wrote:

Not all armies have named characters, and not all named characters are good. Take Iron Hands for instance. Unless you count that piece of garbage Vaylund Cal, IH don't have a named character. In fact we don't have anything that is uniquely IH (anymore)

But Raukaan's chaptah mastah is still most unkillable HQ in game. Yeah. Auto-success FnP is definetly very cool.

 OneEyedALice wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:

Not all armies have named characters, and not all named characters are good. Take Iron Hands for instance. Unless you count that piece of garbage Vaylund Cal, IH don't have a named character. In fact we don't have anything that is uniquely IH (anymore)

But Raukaan's chaptah mastah is still most unkillable HQ in game. Yeah. Auto-success FnP is definetly very cool.

What are you talking about?

Gorgon's Chain + Chapter Tactics + Warlord trait (+1 to FnP rolls) + Endurance = 1+ FnP
There are no any restrictions about feel no pain better than 2+.

It's a cheesy build possible with an Iron Hands CM using a relic from the Clan Raukaan supplement plus a lucky Warlord Trait, and since Feel No Pain is not a save, nothing caps it at 2+. So, you get a Chapter Master of the Iron Hands (6+), in a Command Squad with an Apothecary and (IIRC) a Forge World character (can't remember which. 5+, buffed, becomes 4+, special FW guy makes it 3+), then add the Gorgon's Chain (makes it 2+), then the Warlord Trait (makes it 1+). Put him on a Bike. Now he has Eternal Warrior and a 1+ FNP. You can now only deal wounds to him with S10 or Destroyer or Instant Death. Have fun.

I think. I may have a few details slightly wrong. I've never been tempted to actually run that particular hunk of cheddar, despite playing Iron Hands.

ETA: Oh, right, Endurance too. Yech, hadn't thought of that.

Back in 4th captains let anyone in their army use their Ld for most things (not psychic tests). Basically the Rights of War warlord trait these days. Seemed very appropriate for a marine commander. That was the era I put more captains in my army then other HQs.

Being able to choose their own trait might be a little much, but maybe something to help increase the odds of getting one you like might be appropriate.

But the captain in question is what's commanding your force- the strategic prowess he's showing is what you're doing on the battlefield! Of course, you can always ask him for advice...

Except a roll of a 1 always fails for everything. On topic;

What about allowing the warlord captain/chapter master to pay day 20 points to select there warlord trait?

danny1995 wrote:
Except a roll of a 1 always fails for everything. On topiс

Nope. Only for to hit, to wound and save-throws. FnP is not a save-throw
RAW is RAW, my friend.

If anyone tried to actually play that way, I would politely pack up my minis and leave. Also the ITC and most other tournaments have ruled you can't go better that a 2+

danny1995 wrote:
Except a roll of a 1 always fails for everything. On topic;

What about allowing the warlord captain/chapter master to pay day 20 points to select there warlord trait?

Another example is armor penetration: hit a Venom with a lascannon and that Venom's losing a hull point unless it makes its save. A one to pen is just a one, for a glancing hit.

On topic: that's not a totally terrible idea. I'd do that in a lot of cases. The Iron Hands cheesemongery shows one problem with it, but that could be houseruled out.

jade_angel wrote:

danny1995 wrote:
Except a roll of a 1 always fails for everything. On topic;

What about allowing the warlord captain/chapter master to pay day 20 points to select there warlord trait?

Another example is armor penetration: hit a Venom with a lascannon and that Venom's losing a hull point unless it makes its save. A one to pen is just a one, for a glancing hit.

On topic: that's not a totally terrible idea. I'd do that in a lot of cases. The Iron Hands cheesemongery shows one problem with it, but that could be houseruled out.

I have never played a game where the 1 wasn't a failure for FNP. To do it otherwise is just silly imo. Still makes for a boring hq that is nothing more than a beatstick. And Vaylund Cal is still horrible in comparison to the generic captain/chapter master on a bike (vaylund cal can't take a bike for one thing).

I would gladly give up the cheese in the IH if I could get some fluffy and hopefully (semi) decent rules that fit the IH army.

I don't play as much as I used to because of the loss of all the uniqueness in my army. I am still trying to decide if I should just sell off my IH army and maybe start a different one since GW obviously wants to just remove IH and turn them into another Ultramarines army.